Everyone is so preoccupied with losing their minds every time Trump trolls the media with some new nonsense on social media that they're ignoring the completely insane things going on in the UK. Like arresting people for using naughty language online.
20 years ago this would have been daily outrage on Slashdot's YRO section but I get the feeling no one cares enough anymore.
What is a “UK user?” Someone with their App Store region set to the UK? (Meaning they have a UK payment method.)
What about US citizens living in the UK? Would they have standing to sue Apple in a US court for breach of contract?
I’m also not clear on how Advanced Data Protection could be turned off without affirmative user consent – by definition, won’t the user need to provide their secret key to decrypt their existing data? Or will the iPhone have a multi-hour update where it decrypts its entire iCloud archive on the client-side, and then reuploads it without encryption?
Aren't the English already forced to give cops their phone passwords and face jail time if they refuse to?
Giving away Apple's encrypted cloud is just another small step into making 1984 a reality.
In France, they tried to make a law to force signals, WhatsApp, and other encrypted messaging to implement backdoors so that they could catch drug dealers.
Thankfully, it wasn't voted for, but truthfully, the average people didn't give a shit. I wish there was a way to make people learn how important privacy is to freedom and, therefore, to democracy.
I blame the education system that teaches almost nothing relevant. We even had 'citizen lessons', but it was about learning how the political institution works. We never spoke about what is freedom, what it involves, how easy it is to lose it, how hard it is to gain it.
Section 49 of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 (RIPA).
This section grants police and other public authorities the power to issue a formal written notice (a "Section 49 notice") demanding that a person disclose the password, PIN, or encryption key to a protected device or data.
A notice cannot be issued lightly. It requires approval from a judge and can only be used when it is deemed necessary and proportionate for purposes such as:
In the interests of national security.
For the purpose of preventing or detecting crime.
In the interests of the economic well-being of the UK.
Refusing to comply with a lawfully issued Section 49 notice is a criminal offence under Section 53 of RIPA
Standard cases: Up to two years' imprisonment.
Cases involving national security or child indecency: The maximum penalty is increased to five years' imprisonment.
As someone who lives in the UK, I hope Apple tell the government where to shove their requests, and that they don't bow down like they did in China. I would prefer a company withdraws from the UK than listens to these over reaching requests of a power hungry government.
If you're hoping for multi-trillion dollar multinationals to fight political battles on your behalf, you're playing the wrong game.
Either your country is a democracy where people get to choose what their government does (aka, a majority of people want these invasive policies), or it's illegitimate and should be treated as such.
Sadly, the majority of the people want these policies because they’ve been brainwashed or they’re too apathetic to care. The major political parties want it too. Democracy is flawed.
The UK isn't a democracy anymore. There are now five parties in England trying to co-exist in an electoral system designed for two. Our democracy is in the process of collapsing under its own weight.
CEOs wont go to jail for their customers, especially when there are billions of customers.
There are only two defences, the law - which is on the governments side or not giving your data to people who fuel their yacht and their jet with customer data.
> I hope Apple tell the government where to shove their requests
They complied with the previous request, and stopped because the US government pressured the UK government because they didn't want US nationals to also fall victim to reduced security.
I'd love to see Apple stand up this time, but given their history I don't think it'll happen beyond a miffed comment on a blog somewhere.
If they do it once though, they’ll have to do it everywhere that asks. I hope they can see they’re standing at the top of a very slippery slope.
I also hope our idiotic government starts to go deal with the country’s _actual_ problems sometime soon instead of coming up with pointless / dangerous bs ideas like this + digital ID
There's an easy way out of it but most HN users here would hate it. Apple can just donate to Trump and the problem with the British would go away overnight. Downing Street and GCHQ combined cannot match the coffers of Apple and the greenback is the only currency of power that the whitehouse acknowledges.
At the end of the day, the emperor is happy to yank on the leash of the special relationship so long you pay him off.
If Apple did not stay in the Chinese market they will very quickly have a competitor appear in that market that will then threaten other markets. Arguably, there are already Apple competitors in it and Apple's position keeps them from occupying a space that quickly leads to competing with Apple globally.
China is generally viewed as a unique market and capitulating to the Chinese government may lead to capitulation to the US, but not to any other nation as they are incomparable.
The UK market will neither create an Apple competitor nor will it provide enough scope to allow existing competitors to meaningfully grow.
Capitulating to the UK government will lead to many other countries requiring similar capitulations.
So from the selfish Apple perspective, it made perfect sense and Apple did the right thing (for them). From a rights/freedom perspective (for their users), they did the wrong thing, but that's not a battle that they they alone can win.
Out of the 197 countries in the world, how many have governments that respect the privacy rights of their citizens enough to prevent mass surveillance of them? Answer: Zero. Bring on the arguments about the various laws that prevent this, and I'll point you to the "national security and law enforcement exceptions" they they all have, sometimes in the form of "classified" contracts or court orders, and sometimes in the form of "executive orders" or other similar instruments. There are also agreements between the intelligence services of allied countries that facilitate information sharing, so each counterpart can do the collection and analysis of the partner nation and share the results, without technically violating any of their laws.
The most important thing about this, and other similar overreach, is that there is no democratic constituency for this. It's a waste of time, almost a distraction, picking at the rationality of these constant attacks. The important thing is to find out exactly who they are doing it for.
Who asked for it? Let them speak up, and explain why they are so special that governments should and do obey them. Starmer doesn't personally care about any of this (or anything.) No Labour MP cares about any of this. Who is convincing them to override democracy to create tools that make it easier to override democracy? Force them to drop the pretense that they have come up with this themselves, and that they personally believe that it is important.
Start by finding out who the hands were who wrote the actual text. The MPs themselves, and the network of important nephews and nieces that work on their respective staffs are too stupid to write this stuff. Who are the minds that are crafting law for supposed democracies from whole cloth?
Security services. You have to be absolutely blind at this point not to realise this. The "media campaigns" are identical to the ones used for the past few decades, in print media these were run by tabloids and they have moved on, with less success, online (in the 90s, the coverage of the tabloid campaigns was wall-to-wall). OSA was textbook: unrelated tragic event, young child, grieving parents, mentioning this campaign in relation to the OSA repeatedly despite them being unrelated, same thing every time.
The really odd thing is that you have people who will claim that the media is run by right-wing billionaires. On certain topics, you will see every story come from civil servants, the government is just too big (the easiest way to tell is the sources, articles run by civil servants will almost never have actual sources and will usually not be constructed in a logical way, for example a new one is to repeatedly refer to Russia). But because so many people are making so much money from the government, this kind of thing is ignored (and I will also say, the observation that this isn't the actual government just civil servants is important...some newspapers are now notorious for having civil servants contacts who brief journalists against their own ministers, Home Office is the most well-known but it has happened in almost every area...there is nothing that elected officials can do).
If your OEM can be coerced into pushing a backdoor in an OTA update, maybe our software habits are to blame.
We'll always be powerless to stop top-down attacks like this until we demand real audits and accountability in the devices we own. Shaming the UK only kicks the can down the road and further highlights the danger of trusting a black box to remain secure.
That’s the trick. We don’t own the devices. We merely license their use. No root, no ownership.
People have been warning of this outcome for years and years. Stallman was right and all that. We got laughed out of the room and called paranoid weirdos.
Ever since smartphones were a thing it’s been obvious that this is where we were heading.
When a company has the ability to push OTA updates to a device locked down with trusted computing, it's not even a backdoor at that point, it's a frontdoor.
I agree political action here is totally fruitless. The UK government and Apple could already be cooperating and you would have no way of telling the difference.
> When a company has the ability to push OTA updates to a device locked down with trusted computing, it's not even a backdoor at that point, it's a frontdoor.
Ideally, everything that runs outside of an app sandbox would be 100% Open Source. Anything short of that is not sufficient to give people full confidence against a backdoor. (Even that also relies on people paying attention, but it at least gives the possibility that people outside of a company whistleblower could catch and flag a backdoor.)
I think so too. It should include full free open source specifications of hardware, as well as fully FOSS for all software that is not inside of the sandbox system, and probably also FOSS for most of the stuff that is using the sandbox, too. Other things should also be done rather than this way alone, but this will be a very important part of it.
If only specific individuals are targeted, I agree. But if it's pushed to all users, wouldn't we expect a researcher to notice? Maybe not immediately, so damage will be done in the meantime, but sooner than later.
> But if it's pushed to all users, wouldn't we expect a researcher to notice?
Think of the security a games console has - every download arrives encrypted, all storage encrypted, RAM encrypted, and security hardware in the CPU that makes sure everything is signed by the corporation before decrypting anything. To prevent cheating and piracy.
Modern smartphones are the same way.
We can't expect independent researchers to notice a backdoor when they can't access the code or the network traffic.
Advanced Data Protection, where Apple does not keep a copy of your encryption keys (essentially), was removed in the UK.
The UK seems to now want Apple to decrypt/provide access to encrypted iPhone backups. This is where your device backs itself up in a restorable format to the cloud, including passwords and private data. Since Apple has a way to decrypt non-ADP iCloud data, UK wants it.
They don’t need to. All of the photos and iMessages are stored in iCloud without e2ee (nobody has ADP turned on, and it’s blocked in the UK anyway) and Apple provides the data to the Five Eyes without a warrant.
This is already the status quo in the US. The fact that ADP is offered as an option is irrelevant.
This isn't the type of question I normally ask people, so it sounds like you've made a bad guess here and are treating your own assumption as fact. You are incorrect; I have ADP turned on.
> Apple provides the data to the Five Eyes without a warrant.
Source? Or are you assuming here, too?
> The fact that ADP is offered as an option is irrelevant.
It's ADP. That's why Apple didn't reinstate ADP in the UK. The UK wants a backdoor for UK users of ADP.
And there are plenty of UK users of ADP - those who got in before it was banned still have it.
From the article:
> After the U.K. government first issued the TCN in January, Apple was forced to either create a backdoor or block its Advanced Data Protection feature
> the US claimed the U.K. withdrew the demand, but Apple did not re-enable Advanced Data Protection
> The new order provides insight into why: the U.K. was just rewriting it to only apply to British users
> The Financial Times reports that the U.K. is once again demanding that Apple create a backdoor into its encrypted backup services.
If you read further, or click the FT link, you'll see the UK is now demanding access to encrypted iPhone backups.
ADP is not relevant beyond the history; the UK is not doing anything with ADP but I understand the confusion if you don't know that "iPhone iCloud backup" is a separate service for iPhones.
What is happening in the UK really?. I see numerous clips of the desperate state of many parts of various cities. It seems the country is in a steep decline. The once mighty UK sailing the world now became an island of elitists and many more poor low class folks. Sad reality
I'd be very curious to see the desperate state you are talking about.
For physical infrastructure, there are certainly less well maintained areas and historical policies causing issues, but I'm not aware of any areas that are structurally/physically unsafe.
There are 'rougher' areas, places where theft is more likely but very, very few areas that are genuinely unsafe to walk through. The only ones I'm really aware of are two very small areas in London (basically 2-3 buildings) and certain kinds of traveller camps.
For pretty much everything else, it seems to be on par with other European nations - generally behind the Nordics of course.
Share the videos - I'd love to understand where you are coming from.
Clips don't tell you anything. The UK is suffering in the same way as every other developed country outside of the US and China - low growth that isn't propped up by booming AI and demographic issues.
Everyone knows it, but you're not allowed to say it, and you're definitely not allowed to say it in the UK or you will literally be arrested for speech.
I have been following this thread for a long time. The UK is poor, simply put, but it has taken a long time to realize it. But the chickens are coming home to roost now. The blame is primarily the rich and immigrants. The real problem is socialism and heavy taxes, plus a denigration of entrepreneurs and business owners. They will learn, once everything has gone to utter shit
Capitalism and socialism are both pretty effective at killing competition and rewiring the government & economy to seek extractive rents. Granted, it takes longer with capitalism.
Everyone is so preoccupied with losing their minds every time Trump trolls the media with some new nonsense on social media that they're ignoring the completely insane things going on in the UK. Like arresting people for using naughty language online.
20 years ago this would have been daily outrage on Slashdot's YRO section but I get the feeling no one cares enough anymore.
What is a “UK user?” Someone with their App Store region set to the UK? (Meaning they have a UK payment method.)
What about US citizens living in the UK? Would they have standing to sue Apple in a US court for breach of contract?
I’m also not clear on how Advanced Data Protection could be turned off without affirmative user consent – by definition, won’t the user need to provide their secret key to decrypt their existing data? Or will the iPhone have a multi-hour update where it decrypts its entire iCloud archive on the client-side, and then reuploads it without encryption?
Aren't the English already forced to give cops their phone passwords and face jail time if they refuse to?
Giving away Apple's encrypted cloud is just another small step into making 1984 a reality.
In France, they tried to make a law to force signals, WhatsApp, and other encrypted messaging to implement backdoors so that they could catch drug dealers.
Thankfully, it wasn't voted for, but truthfully, the average people didn't give a shit. I wish there was a way to make people learn how important privacy is to freedom and, therefore, to democracy.
I blame the education system that teaches almost nothing relevant. We even had 'citizen lessons', but it was about learning how the political institution works. We never spoke about what is freedom, what it involves, how easy it is to lose it, how hard it is to gain it.
> Aren't the English already forced to give cops their phone passwords and face jail time if they refuse to?
Ha? Source?
Section 49 of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 (RIPA).
This section grants police and other public authorities the power to issue a formal written notice (a "Section 49 notice") demanding that a person disclose the password, PIN, or encryption key to a protected device or data.
A notice cannot be issued lightly. It requires approval from a judge and can only be used when it is deemed necessary and proportionate for purposes such as:
In the interests of national security.
For the purpose of preventing or detecting crime.
In the interests of the economic well-being of the UK.
Refusing to comply with a lawfully issued Section 49 notice is a criminal offence under Section 53 of RIPA
Standard cases: Up to two years' imprisonment.
Cases involving national security or child indecency: The maximum penalty is increased to five years' imprisonment.
"For the purpose of preventing or detecting crime."
LOL
"For whatever the fuck we want", more like.
Ha! Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_of_Investigatory_Po...
If they succeed, we'll probably never know.
As someone who lives in the UK, I hope Apple tell the government where to shove their requests, and that they don't bow down like they did in China. I would prefer a company withdraws from the UK than listens to these over reaching requests of a power hungry government.
If you're hoping for multi-trillion dollar multinationals to fight political battles on your behalf, you're playing the wrong game.
Either your country is a democracy where people get to choose what their government does (aka, a majority of people want these invasive policies), or it's illegitimate and should be treated as such.
Sadly, the majority of the people want these policies because they’ve been brainwashed or they’re too apathetic to care. The major political parties want it too. Democracy is flawed.
The UK isn't a democracy anymore. There are now five parties in England trying to co-exist in an electoral system designed for two. Our democracy is in the process of collapsing under its own weight.
CEOs wont go to jail for their customers, especially when there are billions of customers.
There are only two defences, the law - which is on the governments side or not giving your data to people who fuel their yacht and their jet with customer data.
> I hope Apple tell the government where to shove their requests
They complied with the previous request, and stopped because the US government pressured the UK government because they didn't want US nationals to also fall victim to reduced security.
I'd love to see Apple stand up this time, but given their history I don't think it'll happen beyond a miffed comment on a blog somewhere.
If they do it once though, they’ll have to do it everywhere that asks. I hope they can see they’re standing at the top of a very slippery slope.
I also hope our idiotic government starts to go deal with the country’s _actual_ problems sometime soon instead of coming up with pointless / dangerous bs ideas like this + digital ID
There's an easy way out of it but most HN users here would hate it. Apple can just donate to Trump and the problem with the British would go away overnight. Downing Street and GCHQ combined cannot match the coffers of Apple and the greenback is the only currency of power that the whitehouse acknowledges.
At the end of the day, the emperor is happy to yank on the leash of the special relationship so long you pay him off.
> I would prefer a company withdraws from the UK than listens to these over reaching requests of a power hungry government.
That doesn't sound super profitable. Apple made money by the truckload bending over to accommodate surveillance in China.
Whilst this is true; its also worth considering:
If Apple did not stay in the Chinese market they will very quickly have a competitor appear in that market that will then threaten other markets. Arguably, there are already Apple competitors in it and Apple's position keeps them from occupying a space that quickly leads to competing with Apple globally.
China is generally viewed as a unique market and capitulating to the Chinese government may lead to capitulation to the US, but not to any other nation as they are incomparable.
The UK market will neither create an Apple competitor nor will it provide enough scope to allow existing competitors to meaningfully grow.
Capitulating to the UK government will lead to many other countries requiring similar capitulations.
So from the selfish Apple perspective, it made perfect sense and Apple did the right thing (for them). From a rights/freedom perspective (for their users), they did the wrong thing, but that's not a battle that they they alone can win.
Out of the 197 countries in the world, how many have governments that respect the privacy rights of their citizens enough to prevent mass surveillance of them? Answer: Zero. Bring on the arguments about the various laws that prevent this, and I'll point you to the "national security and law enforcement exceptions" they they all have, sometimes in the form of "classified" contracts or court orders, and sometimes in the form of "executive orders" or other similar instruments. There are also agreements between the intelligence services of allied countries that facilitate information sharing, so each counterpart can do the collection and analysis of the partner nation and share the results, without technically violating any of their laws.
Keep hoping
The most important thing about this, and other similar overreach, is that there is no democratic constituency for this. It's a waste of time, almost a distraction, picking at the rationality of these constant attacks. The important thing is to find out exactly who they are doing it for.
Who asked for it? Let them speak up, and explain why they are so special that governments should and do obey them. Starmer doesn't personally care about any of this (or anything.) No Labour MP cares about any of this. Who is convincing them to override democracy to create tools that make it easier to override democracy? Force them to drop the pretense that they have come up with this themselves, and that they personally believe that it is important.
Start by finding out who the hands were who wrote the actual text. The MPs themselves, and the network of important nephews and nieces that work on their respective staffs are too stupid to write this stuff. Who are the minds that are crafting law for supposed democracies from whole cloth?
Security services. You have to be absolutely blind at this point not to realise this. The "media campaigns" are identical to the ones used for the past few decades, in print media these were run by tabloids and they have moved on, with less success, online (in the 90s, the coverage of the tabloid campaigns was wall-to-wall). OSA was textbook: unrelated tragic event, young child, grieving parents, mentioning this campaign in relation to the OSA repeatedly despite them being unrelated, same thing every time.
The really odd thing is that you have people who will claim that the media is run by right-wing billionaires. On certain topics, you will see every story come from civil servants, the government is just too big (the easiest way to tell is the sources, articles run by civil servants will almost never have actual sources and will usually not be constructed in a logical way, for example a new one is to repeatedly refer to Russia). But because so many people are making so much money from the government, this kind of thing is ignored (and I will also say, the observation that this isn't the actual government just civil servants is important...some newspapers are now notorious for having civil servants contacts who brief journalists against their own ministers, Home Office is the most well-known but it has happened in almost every area...there is nothing that elected officials can do).
Government is overreaching, it must be someone else's fault!
If your OEM can be coerced into pushing a backdoor in an OTA update, maybe our software habits are to blame.
We'll always be powerless to stop top-down attacks like this until we demand real audits and accountability in the devices we own. Shaming the UK only kicks the can down the road and further highlights the danger of trusting a black box to remain secure.
That’s the trick. We don’t own the devices. We merely license their use. No root, no ownership.
People have been warning of this outcome for years and years. Stallman was right and all that. We got laughed out of the room and called paranoid weirdos.
Ever since smartphones were a thing it’s been obvious that this is where we were heading.
When a company has the ability to push OTA updates to a device locked down with trusted computing, it's not even a backdoor at that point, it's a frontdoor.
I agree political action here is totally fruitless. The UK government and Apple could already be cooperating and you would have no way of telling the difference.
> When a company has the ability to push OTA updates to a device locked down with trusted computing, it's not even a backdoor at that point, it's a frontdoor.
Ideally, everything that runs outside of an app sandbox would be 100% Open Source. Anything short of that is not sufficient to give people full confidence against a backdoor. (Even that also relies on people paying attention, but it at least gives the possibility that people outside of a company whistleblower could catch and flag a backdoor.)
I think so too. It should include full free open source specifications of hardware, as well as fully FOSS for all software that is not inside of the sandbox system, and probably also FOSS for most of the stuff that is using the sandbox, too. Other things should also be done rather than this way alone, but this will be a very important part of it.
I'll go even further and bring up Trusting Trust - whole chain needs to be open source and verifiable.
and you need to be able to compile each and every part of it.
Open source alone isn’t enough. You also need a way to build and deploy the code yourself.
Agreed. And demonstrated reproducibility showing that the result is identical.
> you would have no way of telling the difference
If only specific individuals are targeted, I agree. But if it's pushed to all users, wouldn't we expect a researcher to notice? Maybe not immediately, so damage will be done in the meantime, but sooner than later.
> But if it's pushed to all users, wouldn't we expect a researcher to notice?
Think of the security a games console has - every download arrives encrypted, all storage encrypted, RAM encrypted, and security hardware in the CPU that makes sure everything is signed by the corporation before decrypting anything. To prevent cheating and piracy.
Modern smartphones are the same way.
We can't expect independent researchers to notice a backdoor when they can't access the code or the network traffic.
How long was HeartBleed exploitable? How many people looked at that code? Now, take the source away and make the exploit intentional.
The article states that apple removed the feature in the UK. So what are the UK government demanding access to?
Advanced Data Protection, where Apple does not keep a copy of your encryption keys (essentially), was removed in the UK.
The UK seems to now want Apple to decrypt/provide access to encrypted iPhone backups. This is where your device backs itself up in a restorable format to the cloud, including passwords and private data. Since Apple has a way to decrypt non-ADP iCloud data, UK wants it.
Frankly if Apple (or any provider for that matter) hold the encryption key then it isn't encrypted.
Frankly most of the services you use work exactly like this, so you must think very few things are encrypted
It's encrapped.
encrappted
It's not removed in the UK for users who enabled it before the ban. There may be existing users of it that the UK gov are interested in.
Discussion:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45440226
They don’t need to. All of the photos and iMessages are stored in iCloud without e2ee (nobody has ADP turned on, and it’s blocked in the UK anyway) and Apple provides the data to the Five Eyes without a warrant.
This is already the status quo in the US. The fact that ADP is offered as an option is irrelevant.
> nobody has ADP turned on
This isn't the type of question I normally ask people, so it sounds like you've made a bad guess here and are treating your own assumption as fact. You are incorrect; I have ADP turned on.
> Apple provides the data to the Five Eyes without a warrant.
Source? Or are you assuming here, too?
> The fact that ADP is offered as an option is irrelevant.
Only if you think no one uses it.
Don’t be glib. Of all Apple device users, those who have ADP enabled are almost certainly a rounding error.
> Don't be glib
followed by
> almost certainly
with zero links. Sure, I'll take your word for it.
https://support.apple.com/en-us/102651#:~:text=Advanced%20Da...
Lots of things to fault apple about. This likely is not one of them.
> likely
These load-bearing assumptions are part of Apple's issue.
Anyone can write a whitepaper, keeping a transparent SBOM is a different level of commitment.
This must be a response to the headline, without reading the article. It's specifically users' ADP content that the UK gov wants to be able to access.
It's encrypted iCloud backups, not ADP.
ADP hasn't been available in the UK for some time now.
It's ADP. That's why Apple didn't reinstate ADP in the UK. The UK wants a backdoor for UK users of ADP.
And there are plenty of UK users of ADP - those who got in before it was banned still have it.
From the article:
> After the U.K. government first issued the TCN in January, Apple was forced to either create a backdoor or block its Advanced Data Protection feature
> the US claimed the U.K. withdrew the demand, but Apple did not re-enable Advanced Data Protection
> The new order provides insight into why: the U.K. was just rewriting it to only apply to British users
perhaps you overlooked the literal first line?
> The Financial Times reports that the U.K. is once again demanding that Apple create a backdoor into its encrypted backup services.
If you read further, or click the FT link, you'll see the UK is now demanding access to encrypted iPhone backups.
ADP is not relevant beyond the history; the UK is not doing anything with ADP but I understand the confusion if you don't know that "iPhone iCloud backup" is a separate service for iPhones.
What, so JD Vance was right ?!
What is happening in the UK really?. I see numerous clips of the desperate state of many parts of various cities. It seems the country is in a steep decline. The once mighty UK sailing the world now became an island of elitists and many more poor low class folks. Sad reality
I'd be very curious to see the desperate state you are talking about.
For physical infrastructure, there are certainly less well maintained areas and historical policies causing issues, but I'm not aware of any areas that are structurally/physically unsafe.
There are 'rougher' areas, places where theft is more likely but very, very few areas that are genuinely unsafe to walk through. The only ones I'm really aware of are two very small areas in London (basically 2-3 buildings) and certain kinds of traveller camps.
For pretty much everything else, it seems to be on par with other European nations - generally behind the Nordics of course.
Share the videos - I'd love to understand where you are coming from.
Clips don't tell you anything. The UK is suffering in the same way as every other developed country outside of the US and China - low growth that isn't propped up by booming AI and demographic issues.
>What is happening in the UK really?
Everyone knows it, but you're not allowed to say it, and you're definitely not allowed to say it in the UK or you will literally be arrested for speech.
viz.: they let in a bunch of low-quality people, and now they have to deal with it.
I have been following this thread for a long time. The UK is poor, simply put, but it has taken a long time to realize it. But the chickens are coming home to roost now. The blame is primarily the rich and immigrants. The real problem is socialism and heavy taxes, plus a denigration of entrepreneurs and business owners. They will learn, once everything has gone to utter shit
> The UK is poor, simply put
That's far too simply put
The UK has incredible wealth, it is just more concentrated than ever in a few select pockets
Yes like I said you have the socialism take and your enemy is the rich. You will learn eventually
Capitalism and socialism are both pretty effective at killing competition and rewiring the government & economy to seek extractive rents. Granted, it takes longer with capitalism.