Sort of a hijack, but it rides on the awesomeness that e-bikes can bring about. They truly are incredible if you have never gotten to ride one.
E-bikes with throttles should not be refereed to as e-bikes
E-peds, e-motos, electric motorycle, whatever. Just don't call them ebikes.
The problem is people (especially kids) getting what are essentially electric motorcycles, thinking they are ebikes, and then causing all sorts of chaos on roads and bike paths. This inevitably leads to the public hating "e-bikes" and the government passing totally confused laws about "e-bikes". This also leads to kids getting killed because mom and dad bought them an "e-bike" and let them loose on the roads with it.
Pedal assist ebikes are incredible, and really just turn weak cyclists into strong cyclists, while still providing exercise. It's a revolution for society, but we have to be careful to not totally fumble it with electric motorcycle death machines.
As an oldster who used to do weekly century rides and lost that ability due to nerve damage in my foot (thanks to decades of wearing pointy Italian riding shoes), I’d love it if we could focus on simply enforcing laws that exist rather than saddling arbitrary blanket regulations on lawful citizens.
I built an ebike and hell yes I put a throttle on it because it enables me to ride more technical trails. This bike has dramatically increased my quality of life. Please leave me alone and if someone uses a throttle bike in an illegal manner give them a ticket.
I agree. I thought the electric motorcycle problem was overstated by people complaining online at first. Then they became popular around my house and I agree it’s a huge problem.
I’m fortunate enough to live around a lot of walking and mixed use trails for bikes and pedestrians. Recently they’re unsafe to use in the evenings because you have to be ready to jump out of the way of groups of kids (plus a few adults who should know better) going 45mph on electric bikes with throttles. They don’t even pretend to be e-bikes any more.
The big problem is that there is zero enforcement. If there was at least a chance that someone breaking these laws could lose their bike or have to pay thousands of dollars in fines I think we’d see a lot less of it. Right now everyone knows that they’re not going to get caught, so it’s a free for all.
I believe this to be growing pains. Legislation hasn't yet fully adapted, some of the legislation I've seen makes the mistake of conflaing these, and enforcement is nonexistent in most places. I suspect that as time passes, we'll find ways of allowing ebikes to flourish. Around me the biggest thing I've seen is parents on cargo bikes taking their kids, and that's a demographic that elected officials tend to listen to.
We have the laws. What they’re doing is illegal. I think they need a higher tier of penalties for the repeat offenders, but that would require anyone getting caught first.
It’s an enforcement problem.
The riders know they’re riding where police cars can’t get them. They also know that the bike cops aren’t allowed to ride ultra powerful electric motorcycles. They also know they can just drive off across some grass into a park if anyone tries to stop them.
It’s a hard problem.
> I suspect that as time passes, we'll find ways of allowing ebikes to flourish.
Electric bikes are flourishing here. Electric motorcycles on bike paths are the problem.
I think the electric term is confusing the issue. If it helps, imagine that these were just really quiet but powerful gas powered dirt bikes riding on the pedestrian path. That should give you an idea of what’s going on.
I know what you're talking about, but a lot of people are conflating them. In some cases it is legislators like a recent attempt to require ebikes have to register and have a drivers' license for them. In others it's parents not realizing that they got their kids an electric dirt bike instead of an ebike. Of course, you do have the antisocial element of people not caring and actually seeking out these, but we need to separate the different problems to address them, as you are doing.
I made a comment below about the law that just passed in New Jersey. The short of it is "Anything with two wheels and a motor is now legally a motorcycle, and must follow all the laws and regulations of motorcycles.
Easy for you to say. I’ve almost hit a couple stupid kids on an e-bikes with throttles riding on suburban roads at night with no lights.
And I’m seeing more and more fuckwits ride fast on side walks and accelerate to jump of the sidewalk and into traffic. Almost hitting unsuspecting people on the sidewalk.
Community needs to police itself. Otherwise it’s just going to be waiting for a critical mass of deaths.
> Pedal assist ebikes are incredible, and really just turn weak cyclists into strong cyclists
The more useful case ime is turning cyclists with reduced mobility into regular cyclists.
In particular quite a few elderly people seem to have picked it up in my city, they aren't quite strong riders but definitely seem able of adapting to normal traffic. It also seems like a significantly safer option for individual transport than cars (especially in regards to the other traffic participants).
No. Reduced mobility doesn't mean "weak." It means reduced mobility. It's right there in the words. People who cannot pedal much at all, even the motion, no matter how light it is. Joint issues / surgery, deformities, etc.
I think there are many more factors to it than that. I own a Radwagon, a cargo e-bike and I take my kids to school on it. It’s both pedal assist and has a throttle and maxes out at 20mph. I find the throttle very useful because the bike is pretty damn heavy with two kids on it and moving from a standing stop is much easier when I can give it a quick throttle burst then start pedalling.
All that said, I do agree the term is overloaded. The bike lines in NYC often have people riding electric mopeds in them and that feels dangerous. Their max speed is clearly way above 20mph and they’re bulky. They belong on the road with other mopeds. So IMO the definition of ebike should factor in max speed more than it should throttle vs not.
(And also, seconding the awesomeness of ebikes. My kids love riding on it and it’s allowed us to take so many trips that would have been difficult otherwise. It’s also allowed us to avoid buying a car, for now at least)
The problem with max speed is that while big legit ebike manufacturers respect it (e.g. you can't buy a Bosch ebike in the UK that will go above 15.5mph), you can easily get Chinese models that don't care, or you can mod other bikes that do fairly easily.
Why not just define the law in terms of maximum speed and be fine with it? Why nitpick over control modes?
I can guarantee that if I asked 10 random cops what the restrictions are of a Class 2 e-bike not more than 1 could answer, but if I asked them to stop people who were going over 30mph on the bike trail they could figure it out.
You can't "easily" modify an electric brushless motor to go faster than its Kv limit, to handle more current than its magnetic saturation limit, or to exceed the limits of back-EMF.
99% of the people whinging about ebikes have no idea what they're talking about.
I propose a new and improved e-bike classification scheme:
Class A: Bikes that can not go over 10mph via a throttle. And can’t go over 28mph with pedal assist. Or set the pedal assist limit at 20mph if you’re feeling especially conservative.
Class B-Class infinity: These aren’t considered bikes. Class A is the only class of e-bike.
I don't understand that point. Why do e-bikes become better or more safe when you have to rotate your legs? Its really frustrating and silly that I have to go through the motions (literally) of riding a bicycle if I want to get the priviledge of using a bike lane or going without a license plate. (At least that's the case here in Germany AFAIK).
They could go ahead and make "fast electric bikes" and "slow electric bikes" or something as categories and that would make sense - but hinging the decision on whether your legs or your wrist is turning is illogical. I think it is actually morally charged - like you have to put in the work if you want the privilege.
We can focus on clamping down of "faux pedal ebikes" when the time comes, but for now it looks like we'll be throwing out everything to just to stop teenagers on surrons.
The point in distinguishing the different classes is about where the bike should fit into the ecosystem. Should it ride on the shoulder, interacting with pedestrians and slower bikes, or should it ride on the road, interacting with cars and motorcycles.
It doesn’t matter how much riding it takes, it matters how fast and controlled it is moving compared to the other traffic in that class.
It's because absolutely everyone understands the proportional nature of "press pedals to go" while nobody without special training understands "turn wrist to go", especially not the crucial details of "untwist wrist to stop" and "by the way don't yank open the throttle while attempting a sharp turn".
Its easy, the accelerations are completely different and very hard to gauge. Also you have the elderly going speeds that does not mach their reactions, while also being unaware of how fast they are going. If you try biking with them it become very obvious how many dangerous situations they cause compared to true e-bike and normal bikes.
Pedal assist feels like amplifying your natural power. The boost it gives is perfectly matched with your own movements so it feels more like you are just super fit. And there is far less chance you can just slip and apply too much power unlike throttle controlled.
I really like a low speed throttle, like 3-5mph max is fine. 20mph is too fast and results in ebikes basically designed a motorcycles that cannot be pedaled. The throttle is so nice to have to get started quickly like turning left at a light, if you didn't have time to downshift before stopping, on a hill, or if the bike is heavily loaded with stuff. Its also nice to be able to use to slowly move between cars with your feet off the pedals to keep balance if needed.
To me, that sounds like a task for your country’s lawmakers, rather than “Just don't call them ebikes”
Motorbikes need training, a license, insurance, registration, a minimum age, etc - and you’re competing with small petrol motorcycles which are cheap new, and plentiful on the used market.
E-bike makers aren’t going to volunteer for that - it’d destroy their business.
yeah this seems to be the catch 22 to me.
the laws are out there to limit the e-bikes to speeds and power.
i want an irresponsibly powered one because i have an endorsement and
want a non-sketch electric motorcycle that isn't mad expensive compared to petrol bikes in north america.
but because that would indeed kill their market because most people don't have motorcycle licenses,
no one gets them approved, or countries won't allow them.
New Jersey just passed some of the most onerous and short sighted ebike laws in the world last month.
Basically anything that has two wheels and a non-human energy source drive is now a motorcycle, requiring a license, registration (including a license plate), insurance, and a DOT approved motorcycle helmet, as well as This law came on the back of two teens being killed on ebikes last year.
This is the exact kind of idiotic knee-jerk legislation that will come from the public and governments general ignorance on the state of electric tandem wheel transportation.
So now in New Jersey, Betsy with her class 1 250W pedal assist ebike must get her license and don her motorcycle helmet while only riding on roads with her insured, registered, and license plated 15 mph bicycle.
Lawmakers aren't going to do their homework, they will just kneejerk appease the general public.
This is what happens when ebike companies take every opportunity to skirt the laws like putting easily removable limiters on motorcycles with pedals and a chain with a gear ratio that makes pedalling practically impossible.
I don't know if there was an existing attempt at regulation in NJ specifically but that's happening all around the country.
The problem is that, while ebikes have a ton of really good use cases, the big market for them is basically kids who want to drive a motorcycle before they're allowed. Ebike companies are going to try to sell to that market any way they can.
As an alternative mode of transportation, that could/should replace car usage for many people, I think we need to separate the two completely as well. The throttle version needs to be regulated more like a motorcycle or moped. This would take it out of the hands of most kids and cause license suspension worries for young adults and other reckless users. I agree they are essentially death machines and governments generally have no sane approach to regulating them.
That said, I think the e-moto versions have more potential towards alleviating traffic or being an alternative mode of transportation as most people don’t want to peddle at all. E-bikes are great, but I don’t think it’s reasonable to assume that would ever be on the average Joe’s list of feasible alternatives.
There is nothing standing in the way of electric motorcycles.
People get e-motos because it is effectively a motorcycle, except it doesn't have any road legality requirements. People treat them like bicycles that can just magically go 50mph.
Most people don't want a two-wheeler, period. Otherwise everyone would be riding motorcycles. People want a vehicle that will keep them dry, comfortable, and safe. Two-wheelers of all types fail at all of those things.
There's not much difference between a throttle and a sufficiently powerful pedal-assist. Switch to your top gear, and the torque-sensor will say "gee that's a steep hill, let me give you a boost" the moment you start pedalling.
Banning throttles just makes manufacturers install token pedals on the motorbikes.
In theory maybe, but in reality pedal assist bikes are far more likely to be compliant with speed and power restrictions and designed to feel like a bike. While throttle bikes are almost always sold as dirt bikes for use on private property.
I wouldn't want an e-bike precisely because I can't trust my government not to introduce some new legislation with onerous rules or extra costs. Maybe if they were cheap, but since they cost an arm and a leg there's no reason to get them.
“E-bikes with throttles should not be refereed to as e-bikes”
This is simply wrong and does a disservice to the growing eBike interest. The US-federally defined classes are proper and while IMO overly limiting (max speed should be 60kph and still classified as an eBike as it’s simply safer in traffic), they adequately classify what is an eBike and what is not, and having a throttle does not make something not an eBike, but max speed and power.
People have this urge to classify their limited version of what something is by how they use it with some desire to belittle others, and want to limit everyone else who have completely different requirements and capabilities and desires. eBikes in most US states can be ridden on sidewalks, in bike lanes, in traffic, on trails, and across a grassy meadow. There is no justifiable reason to require someone to have different eBikes to be able to do all those things with comfort and safety and capability and utility when a well engineered eBike can do all of them. That they might be safer with circumstantially restricted speeds, such as overtaking pedestrians, etc. again does mean multiple eBikes should be mandated to be able to do each of them.
In the US, hopefully the next administration will buy a vowel and realize they need to set federal standards and eliminate this hodgepodge state and county and city and park and street and neighborhood capricious variety of who can ride what when and where, and with what gear and at what times and for what reasons. If decisions are made that no one under 13 can ride an eBike, and then only to school until you’re 16, and you must wear a helmet until at least 19, then at least there will be consistent rules for people to argue for and against.
60kmph / 37mph is very fast for somebody who might just be wearing a bicycle helmet (hopefully). If traffic is going that fast, I think it may just not be the appropriate place for a bicycle to be. I've gone that fast on an e-bike before, and it doesn't feel comfortable nor safe.
I think e-motos should be as lightly regulated as possible. The regulations on bike paths should be speed, not pedal vs. non-pedal. And since "bikes" aren't regulated but "mopeds" are, you see people avoiding government BS by shipping e-bikes that have "off-road" mode that enables no-pedal throttles.
I was working on an LED project that involved some reasonably-sized lithium batteries, and the guy in the hardware store said "I don't want to hear about you in the news tomorrow". That really stuck with me, and I say it sometimes when I think someone's going to do something dangerous.
eBikes are such a game changer. I do most of our family of four's grocery shopping with ours.
Because of the assist, I find myself more comfortable in a wider range of weather conditions:
* If it's hot, I use more assist and there's an instant cooling effect. Much better than climbing into a hot car.
* If it's cold, I dress up to be warm outside and if I start to warm up on the ride, I use more assist. I don't have to try and balance staying warm and not getting sweaty.
* Same thing if it's wet out: I can wear heavier waterproof gear and not get sweaty.
In my city, travel habits and condition, I find I wish for more torque and lower speed. Every place I want to go has significant hills that the motor can't handle, and easing climbing hills is the main reason I want an ebike. My ebike's minimum speed for the motor is 15kph, which is ok by myself, but my family likes to go slower, so I have to go fully manual with them. When I look at ebike ads it feels like nobody else cares about these two areas of performance. When I talk to local ebike shops they are unprepared to talk about torque and minimum speed.
I fitted a Bafeng mid-drive motor to my city bike and it's fabulous for hills. Because the power goes through the existing drivechain you can get high torque simply by switching to first gear. No minimum speed, power kicks in after half a turn of the pedals. Coupled with hub gears you can change at rest it's a marvel.
Even at the European street legal limit of 250W it makes acceleration trivial.
Depends on the bike. On some bikes the motor is mounted in the rear wheel, in which case there's no gear between the motor and the wheel. On other bikes the motor is mounted between the pedals and sent to the rear via the chain, in which case shifting works as you expect. But the latter style (a.k.a. mid-drive) demands custom frames (because mid-drive motors are nonstandardized), which increases costs and decreases repairability. In contrast, rear-wheel motors can fit on literally any frame, so they're much more accessible.
It's weird that these restrictions apply: 25km/h, 55km range? The Evolve Carbon skateboard tops out at 50km/h, and 80km range. Granted, you have to be a little bit crazy to ride that fast on a skateboard, and having owned an earlier version, I guarantee it's not pleasant riding that far on one. But people do it. Someone must be putting out faster/longer distance bikes that don't look like/ride like mopeds.
> My first e-bike, a pretty crappy one but enough to get my appetite whetted had a 500 Wh battery, enough for a 55 km trip one-way, and it would be dead on arrival, range anxiety to the max.
What? 55km with a 500Wh battery? Was he not pedaling at all? Why does he even have range anxiety on an ebike? You can just pedal if the battery is low.
I'm a total sucker for ebikes and built my first ebike around 2006, powered by 40lbs of lead acid motorcycle batteries.
I recently outfitted a trailer with a large battery made for an efoil (my other obsession) where the non-battery components went bad, the company went out of business, and "Hey, this would make a bitchin' ebike battery.
Right after the pandemic of 2020, I joined an “outside squad” of OneWheel enthusiasts, PEV daredevils, and E-bike low riders. We would ride around the city in 70 man packs. It was the most fun I’ve had as a grown up. :) Even broke my olecranon in a nose dive but rode my wheel out of the hospital. Best money spent.
I think that size of battery would move it into requiring a motorcycle license here in Switzerland, just based on the size alone. And if it goes faster than 45km/h then definitely.
I have my motorcycle license and have been considering getting something that I can ride all day. Only problem is that if it's classified as a motorcycle license I don't think I can take it in the train like a bike if I run out of juice far away.
The article mentions using Trespa, which I had to look up. It's a type of cladding that is fire resistant but is also not metal. It's a laminate type. The author is in the Netherlands, the infrastructure there must be really good to be able to ride 160km on an e bike between cities.
It does feel like this is such an untapped market. Think commuters, credit cart tourers, tourism around a spread out city. Something that is safer than a motorcycle and faster than a bike.
In Germany at least the routes are a lot prettier because they go through forests and villages. It's what got me to cycle more and ride my motorcycle less.
high quality heavy 18650s weigh about 2 oz. 190 of them would weigh about 24 lbs. Throw in another 6-10 lbs for bms, wiring, casing and errata and it's not that bad.
I don't know if this figures into the engineering formulas, but an e-bike needs to be stronger due to the higher speeds and power levels. On a human powered bike, if you're hauling 150 pounds, you're probably going pretty slow.
My friends who have e-bikes go through a lot more "consumable" parts such as chains, tires, brakes, cogs, and bearings.
... put your (e)bike on a train, that's where the range come from.
Very cool experimentation but in term of making the practice sustainable best to rely on the infrastructure. It's a bit like in sports having to use the big muscles, e.g. you climb with your legs, not with your fingers no matter what super strength grip you have.
Fucking people pushing their ebikes into already crowded trains! You wanted to cycle, go cycle then; don't pester us regulars with your 30kg dirtmachine.
99% of the time it's food delivery workers who have to live in the outer edges of the city while all the orders are in the inner city.
The solution to this problem is to run enough trains that they aren't so crowded a bike wouldn't fit. These people are paying for tickets so their usage should be funding the running of more services.
The aerodynamic situation of a bicycle is so disadvantageous that the easiest way to get a long range e-bike is to simply ride more slowly. People internalize beliefs about energy-range ratios from electric cars, but they don't translate well to bicycles.
Very cool. Thanks for sharing. I have an ebike myself and have considered just strapping extra battery packs to the frame so that I can just swap when required. In the end, I mostly take shorter trips (I’ve had it since Dec and my odo only reads three figures).
Speaking of R&M, I have wanted to get one of their bikes that has the child container area in the front. I saw one guy with one and it looked pretty awesome. A large bike like that would benefit from some larger battery pack. And those have a flat area in front on the frame where you can host a few parallel to the floor (hard in a normal bike frame).
One annoying constraint is that it’s hard to find a place here in America where people won’t tacitly kill children. As more people here become online only child-free characters driving large EVs they don’t think too much about killing children and will only delay someone’s license for a couple of years for doing so.
Sort of a hijack, but it rides on the awesomeness that e-bikes can bring about. They truly are incredible if you have never gotten to ride one.
E-bikes with throttles should not be refereed to as e-bikes
E-peds, e-motos, electric motorycle, whatever. Just don't call them ebikes.
The problem is people (especially kids) getting what are essentially electric motorcycles, thinking they are ebikes, and then causing all sorts of chaos on roads and bike paths. This inevitably leads to the public hating "e-bikes" and the government passing totally confused laws about "e-bikes". This also leads to kids getting killed because mom and dad bought them an "e-bike" and let them loose on the roads with it.
Pedal assist ebikes are incredible, and really just turn weak cyclists into strong cyclists, while still providing exercise. It's a revolution for society, but we have to be careful to not totally fumble it with electric motorcycle death machines.
As an oldster who used to do weekly century rides and lost that ability due to nerve damage in my foot (thanks to decades of wearing pointy Italian riding shoes), I’d love it if we could focus on simply enforcing laws that exist rather than saddling arbitrary blanket regulations on lawful citizens.
I built an ebike and hell yes I put a throttle on it because it enables me to ride more technical trails. This bike has dramatically increased my quality of life. Please leave me alone and if someone uses a throttle bike in an illegal manner give them a ticket.
I agree. I thought the electric motorcycle problem was overstated by people complaining online at first. Then they became popular around my house and I agree it’s a huge problem.
I’m fortunate enough to live around a lot of walking and mixed use trails for bikes and pedestrians. Recently they’re unsafe to use in the evenings because you have to be ready to jump out of the way of groups of kids (plus a few adults who should know better) going 45mph on electric bikes with throttles. They don’t even pretend to be e-bikes any more.
The big problem is that there is zero enforcement. If there was at least a chance that someone breaking these laws could lose their bike or have to pay thousands of dollars in fines I think we’d see a lot less of it. Right now everyone knows that they’re not going to get caught, so it’s a free for all.
I believe this to be growing pains. Legislation hasn't yet fully adapted, some of the legislation I've seen makes the mistake of conflaing these, and enforcement is nonexistent in most places. I suspect that as time passes, we'll find ways of allowing ebikes to flourish. Around me the biggest thing I've seen is parents on cargo bikes taking their kids, and that's a demographic that elected officials tend to listen to.
We have the laws. What they’re doing is illegal. I think they need a higher tier of penalties for the repeat offenders, but that would require anyone getting caught first.
It’s an enforcement problem.
The riders know they’re riding where police cars can’t get them. They also know that the bike cops aren’t allowed to ride ultra powerful electric motorcycles. They also know they can just drive off across some grass into a park if anyone tries to stop them.
It’s a hard problem.
> I suspect that as time passes, we'll find ways of allowing ebikes to flourish.
Electric bikes are flourishing here. Electric motorcycles on bike paths are the problem.
I think the electric term is confusing the issue. If it helps, imagine that these were just really quiet but powerful gas powered dirt bikes riding on the pedestrian path. That should give you an idea of what’s going on.
I know what you're talking about, but a lot of people are conflating them. In some cases it is legislators like a recent attempt to require ebikes have to register and have a drivers' license for them. In others it's parents not realizing that they got their kids an electric dirt bike instead of an ebike. Of course, you do have the antisocial element of people not caring and actually seeking out these, but we need to separate the different problems to address them, as you are doing.
> In some cases it is legislators like a recent attempt to require ebikes have to register and have a drivers' license for them.
Has any legislation been passed or was this only a proposal?
Crazy legislation gets proposed all the time with no possibility of passing. Some times no intent of passing, either.
I made a comment below about the law that just passed in New Jersey. The short of it is "Anything with two wheels and a motor is now legally a motorcycle, and must follow all the laws and regulations of motorcycles.
Motorcycle cops can ride faster than any e-bike, and go anywhere a bicycle can.
> We have the laws. What they’re doing is illegal. … It’s an enforcement problem.
Because some people think laws only ever exist to restrain as a show of power over others and something is only illegal if you get caught.
And some people just want to be contrarian and acting against the law is the ultimate punching-up.
Some laws are just a good idea, and provide benefit, or even just expectation/predictability, to everyone.
The problem is the rider not the bike.
Easy for you to say. I’ve almost hit a couple stupid kids on an e-bikes with throttles riding on suburban roads at night with no lights.
And I’m seeing more and more fuckwits ride fast on side walks and accelerate to jump of the sidewalk and into traffic. Almost hitting unsuspecting people on the sidewalk.
Community needs to police itself. Otherwise it’s just going to be waiting for a critical mass of deaths.
> Pedal assist ebikes are incredible, and really just turn weak cyclists into strong cyclists
The more useful case ime is turning cyclists with reduced mobility into regular cyclists.
In particular quite a few elderly people seem to have picked it up in my city, they aren't quite strong riders but definitely seem able of adapting to normal traffic. It also seems like a significantly safer option for individual transport than cars (especially in regards to the other traffic participants).
The more useful case ime is turning cyclists with reduced mobility into regular cyclists.
You mean, turn weak cyclists into strong cyclists, like GP said? :-)
No. Reduced mobility doesn't mean "weak." It means reduced mobility. It's right there in the words. People who cannot pedal much at all, even the motion, no matter how light it is. Joint issues / surgery, deformities, etc.
Don't be smarmy.
Elderly on a basically unlicensed motorcycle is a good recipe for injury. Pretty sure the stats look bad for this group especially
You just repeated W²s point.
I think there are many more factors to it than that. I own a Radwagon, a cargo e-bike and I take my kids to school on it. It’s both pedal assist and has a throttle and maxes out at 20mph. I find the throttle very useful because the bike is pretty damn heavy with two kids on it and moving from a standing stop is much easier when I can give it a quick throttle burst then start pedalling.
All that said, I do agree the term is overloaded. The bike lines in NYC often have people riding electric mopeds in them and that feels dangerous. Their max speed is clearly way above 20mph and they’re bulky. They belong on the road with other mopeds. So IMO the definition of ebike should factor in max speed more than it should throttle vs not.
(And also, seconding the awesomeness of ebikes. My kids love riding on it and it’s allowed us to take so many trips that would have been difficult otherwise. It’s also allowed us to avoid buying a car, for now at least)
The problem with max speed is that while big legit ebike manufacturers respect it (e.g. you can't buy a Bosch ebike in the UK that will go above 15.5mph), you can easily get Chinese models that don't care, or you can mod other bikes that do fairly easily.
I don't know what the solution is tbh.
Why not just define the law in terms of maximum speed and be fine with it? Why nitpick over control modes?
I can guarantee that if I asked 10 random cops what the restrictions are of a Class 2 e-bike not more than 1 could answer, but if I asked them to stop people who were going over 30mph on the bike trail they could figure it out.
You can't "easily" modify an electric brushless motor to go faster than its Kv limit, to handle more current than its magnetic saturation limit, or to exceed the limits of back-EMF.
99% of the people whinging about ebikes have no idea what they're talking about.
I propose a new and improved e-bike classification scheme:
Class A: Bikes that can not go over 10mph via a throttle. And can’t go over 28mph with pedal assist. Or set the pedal assist limit at 20mph if you’re feeling especially conservative.
Class B-Class infinity: These aren’t considered bikes. Class A is the only class of e-bike.
I don't understand that point. Why do e-bikes become better or more safe when you have to rotate your legs? Its really frustrating and silly that I have to go through the motions (literally) of riding a bicycle if I want to get the priviledge of using a bike lane or going without a license plate. (At least that's the case here in Germany AFAIK).
They could go ahead and make "fast electric bikes" and "slow electric bikes" or something as categories and that would make sense - but hinging the decision on whether your legs or your wrist is turning is illogical. I think it is actually morally charged - like you have to put in the work if you want the privilege.
Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
We can focus on clamping down of "faux pedal ebikes" when the time comes, but for now it looks like we'll be throwing out everything to just to stop teenagers on surrons.
How much riding does it take to hold 25mph? 12 months of solid riding? (This is being generous, many people will never hold this speed)
How much riding does it take to twist your arm 30 degrees?
You don’t see a difference?
The answer is cyclist gatekeeping? Or did I misunderstand your point?
Why would people have a hard time doing 25mph on a pedal assist bike that isn't limited to less than that?
Why does it matter how much riding it takes?
The point in distinguishing the different classes is about where the bike should fit into the ecosystem. Should it ride on the shoulder, interacting with pedestrians and slower bikes, or should it ride on the road, interacting with cars and motorcycles.
It doesn’t matter how much riding it takes, it matters how fast and controlled it is moving compared to the other traffic in that class.
It's because absolutely everyone understands the proportional nature of "press pedals to go" while nobody without special training understands "turn wrist to go", especially not the crucial details of "untwist wrist to stop" and "by the way don't yank open the throttle while attempting a sharp turn".
Its easy, the accelerations are completely different and very hard to gauge. Also you have the elderly going speeds that does not mach their reactions, while also being unaware of how fast they are going. If you try biking with them it become very obvious how many dangerous situations they cause compared to true e-bike and normal bikes.
Pedal assist feels like amplifying your natural power. The boost it gives is perfectly matched with your own movements so it feels more like you are just super fit. And there is far less chance you can just slip and apply too much power unlike throttle controlled.
I really like a low speed throttle, like 3-5mph max is fine. 20mph is too fast and results in ebikes basically designed a motorcycles that cannot be pedaled. The throttle is so nice to have to get started quickly like turning left at a light, if you didn't have time to downshift before stopping, on a hill, or if the bike is heavily loaded with stuff. Its also nice to be able to use to slowly move between cars with your feet off the pedals to keep balance if needed.
To me, that sounds like a task for your country’s lawmakers, rather than “Just don't call them ebikes”
Motorbikes need training, a license, insurance, registration, a minimum age, etc - and you’re competing with small petrol motorcycles which are cheap new, and plentiful on the used market.
E-bike makers aren’t going to volunteer for that - it’d destroy their business.
yeah this seems to be the catch 22 to me. the laws are out there to limit the e-bikes to speeds and power. i want an irresponsibly powered one because i have an endorsement and want a non-sketch electric motorcycle that isn't mad expensive compared to petrol bikes in north america.
but because that would indeed kill their market because most people don't have motorcycle licenses, no one gets them approved, or countries won't allow them.
New Jersey just passed some of the most onerous and short sighted ebike laws in the world last month.
Basically anything that has two wheels and a non-human energy source drive is now a motorcycle, requiring a license, registration (including a license plate), insurance, and a DOT approved motorcycle helmet, as well as This law came on the back of two teens being killed on ebikes last year.
This is the exact kind of idiotic knee-jerk legislation that will come from the public and governments general ignorance on the state of electric tandem wheel transportation.
So now in New Jersey, Betsy with her class 1 250W pedal assist ebike must get her license and don her motorcycle helmet while only riding on roads with her insured, registered, and license plated 15 mph bicycle.
Lawmakers aren't going to do their homework, they will just kneejerk appease the general public.
This is what happens when ebike companies take every opportunity to skirt the laws like putting easily removable limiters on motorcycles with pedals and a chain with a gear ratio that makes pedalling practically impossible.
I don't know if there was an existing attempt at regulation in NJ specifically but that's happening all around the country.
The problem is that, while ebikes have a ton of really good use cases, the big market for them is basically kids who want to drive a motorcycle before they're allowed. Ebike companies are going to try to sell to that market any way they can.
>E-bike makers aren't going to volunteer for that it'd destroy their business.
Arguably, complete bans will be even worse for business.
As an alternative mode of transportation, that could/should replace car usage for many people, I think we need to separate the two completely as well. The throttle version needs to be regulated more like a motorcycle or moped. This would take it out of the hands of most kids and cause license suspension worries for young adults and other reckless users. I agree they are essentially death machines and governments generally have no sane approach to regulating them.
That said, I think the e-moto versions have more potential towards alleviating traffic or being an alternative mode of transportation as most people don’t want to peddle at all. E-bikes are great, but I don’t think it’s reasonable to assume that would ever be on the average Joe’s list of feasible alternatives.
There is nothing standing in the way of electric motorcycles.
People get e-motos because it is effectively a motorcycle, except it doesn't have any road legality requirements. People treat them like bicycles that can just magically go 50mph.
> most people don’t want to peddle at all.
Most people don't want a two-wheeler, period. Otherwise everyone would be riding motorcycles. People want a vehicle that will keep them dry, comfortable, and safe. Two-wheelers of all types fail at all of those things.
There's not much difference between a throttle and a sufficiently powerful pedal-assist. Switch to your top gear, and the torque-sensor will say "gee that's a steep hill, let me give you a boost" the moment you start pedalling.
Banning throttles just makes manufacturers install token pedals on the motorbikes.
In theory maybe, but in reality pedal assist bikes are far more likely to be compliant with speed and power restrictions and designed to feel like a bike. While throttle bikes are almost always sold as dirt bikes for use on private property.
The throttle isn't a problem, the top speed is. A throttle and pedal assist is nice because you can get started faster and more safely from a stop.
Kids riding out of spec motorcycles has always been illegal and always will be. The only problem is that they are a lot cheaper than they used to be.
I wouldn't want an e-bike precisely because I can't trust my government not to introduce some new legislation with onerous rules or extra costs. Maybe if they were cheap, but since they cost an arm and a leg there's no reason to get them.
“E-bikes with throttles should not be refereed to as e-bikes”
This is simply wrong and does a disservice to the growing eBike interest. The US-federally defined classes are proper and while IMO overly limiting (max speed should be 60kph and still classified as an eBike as it’s simply safer in traffic), they adequately classify what is an eBike and what is not, and having a throttle does not make something not an eBike, but max speed and power.
People have this urge to classify their limited version of what something is by how they use it with some desire to belittle others, and want to limit everyone else who have completely different requirements and capabilities and desires. eBikes in most US states can be ridden on sidewalks, in bike lanes, in traffic, on trails, and across a grassy meadow. There is no justifiable reason to require someone to have different eBikes to be able to do all those things with comfort and safety and capability and utility when a well engineered eBike can do all of them. That they might be safer with circumstantially restricted speeds, such as overtaking pedestrians, etc. again does mean multiple eBikes should be mandated to be able to do each of them.
In the US, hopefully the next administration will buy a vowel and realize they need to set federal standards and eliminate this hodgepodge state and county and city and park and street and neighborhood capricious variety of who can ride what when and where, and with what gear and at what times and for what reasons. If decisions are made that no one under 13 can ride an eBike, and then only to school until you’re 16, and you must wear a helmet until at least 19, then at least there will be consistent rules for people to argue for and against.
60kmph / 37mph is very fast for somebody who might just be wearing a bicycle helmet (hopefully). If traffic is going that fast, I think it may just not be the appropriate place for a bicycle to be. I've gone that fast on an e-bike before, and it doesn't feel comfortable nor safe.
Why do you think it is bad for communities to set their own standards?
I think e-motos should be as lightly regulated as possible. The regulations on bike paths should be speed, not pedal vs. non-pedal. And since "bikes" aren't regulated but "mopeds" are, you see people avoiding government BS by shipping e-bikes that have "off-road" mode that enables no-pedal throttles.
I know a guy who tried doing something like this and burnt his house down. One of the batteries exploded and took the others with it.
I was working on an LED project that involved some reasonably-sized lithium batteries, and the guy in the hardware store said "I don't want to hear about you in the news tomorrow". That really stuck with me, and I say it sometimes when I think someone's going to do something dangerous.
I was just looking for the comment telling me this is _probably_ a bad idea, so thanks!
I think of e-bikes as a kind of "electric horse."
* Goes about as fast as a horse
* Goes about the same distance as a horse
* Sitting on a saddle like a horse
* Out in the weather like a horse
* But no feed or vet bills
* No need for lots of land or infrastructure
* Little ongoing maintenance
* Little skill needed to ride :-)
eBikes are such a game changer. I do most of our family of four's grocery shopping with ours.
Because of the assist, I find myself more comfortable in a wider range of weather conditions:
* If it's hot, I use more assist and there's an instant cooling effect. Much better than climbing into a hot car.
* If it's cold, I dress up to be warm outside and if I start to warm up on the ride, I use more assist. I don't have to try and balance staying warm and not getting sweaty.
* Same thing if it's wet out: I can wear heavier waterproof gear and not get sweaty.
In my city, travel habits and condition, I find I wish for more torque and lower speed. Every place I want to go has significant hills that the motor can't handle, and easing climbing hills is the main reason I want an ebike. My ebike's minimum speed for the motor is 15kph, which is ok by myself, but my family likes to go slower, so I have to go fully manual with them. When I look at ebike ads it feels like nobody else cares about these two areas of performance. When I talk to local ebike shops they are unprepared to talk about torque and minimum speed.
Exchanging torque and speed is like the only function of the gears on your bike.
I fitted a Bafeng mid-drive motor to my city bike and it's fabulous for hills. Because the power goes through the existing drivechain you can get high torque simply by switching to first gear. No minimum speed, power kicks in after half a turn of the pedals. Coupled with hub gears you can change at rest it's a marvel.
Even at the European street legal limit of 250W it makes acceleration trivial.
It was too early and a bit of a dangerous design, but the StokeMonkey was built for torque and worked great at low speeds.
Some pedicab folks in Austin used to use them.
Hill climbing video YouTube https://share.google/iLrHXvjAKMO4esAux
Design info https://share.google/iLrHXvjAKMO4esAux
Huh, it's you bike have a hub motor? The thing inside the wheel?
Mine sits between the pedals. That means I can just go down in gear and the motor helps with going up the hill.
Doesn't it help changing gears? You can even get sprockets changed to lower the gearing for more torque.
Depends on the bike. On some bikes the motor is mounted in the rear wheel, in which case there's no gear between the motor and the wheel. On other bikes the motor is mounted between the pedals and sent to the rear via the chain, in which case shifting works as you expect. But the latter style (a.k.a. mid-drive) demands custom frames (because mid-drive motors are nonstandardized), which increases costs and decreases repairability. In contrast, rear-wheel motors can fit on literally any frame, so they're much more accessible.
It's weird that these restrictions apply: 25km/h, 55km range? The Evolve Carbon skateboard tops out at 50km/h, and 80km range. Granted, you have to be a little bit crazy to ride that fast on a skateboard, and having owned an earlier version, I guarantee it's not pleasant riding that far on one. But people do it. Someone must be putting out faster/longer distance bikes that don't look like/ride like mopeds.
Okay, a quick google and this seems somewhat moped-ish but 200 mile range, 28mph top speed: https://aniioki.com/products/aniioki-aq177-pro-max-electric-...
Crazy price, but a real bike with 300 mile range and 36mph top speed: https://shop.optibike.com/shop/r22-everest/
Ebikes cannot go faster than 25 kph in the Netherlands, where the author lives. Also they cannot provide power assist without pedalling.
2021?
> My first e-bike, a pretty crappy one but enough to get my appetite whetted had a 500 Wh battery, enough for a 55 km trip one-way, and it would be dead on arrival, range anxiety to the max.
What? 55km with a 500Wh battery? Was he not pedaling at all? Why does he even have range anxiety on an ebike? You can just pedal if the battery is low.
Original post and discussion in 2021: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29198205
Thanks! Macroexpanded:
Show HN: Long Range E-Bike - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29198205 - Nov 2021 (615 comments)
Respect: that's a beautiful pack.
I'm a total sucker for ebikes and built my first ebike around 2006, powered by 40lbs of lead acid motorcycle batteries.
I recently outfitted a trailer with a large battery made for an efoil (my other obsession) where the non-battery components went bad, the company went out of business, and "Hey, this would make a bitchin' ebike battery.
Here's me cruising around the Oregon back country with said setup last summer: https://imgur.com/a/lmvJSBW
Wow. What is your total capacity and range with that setup?
Man: “How much power that thing got?”
You: “Yes.”
Right after the pandemic of 2020, I joined an “outside squad” of OneWheel enthusiasts, PEV daredevils, and E-bike low riders. We would ride around the city in 70 man packs. It was the most fun I’ve had as a grown up. :) Even broke my olecranon in a nose dive but rode my wheel out of the hospital. Best money spent.
I think that size of battery would move it into requiring a motorcycle license here in Switzerland, just based on the size alone. And if it goes faster than 45km/h then definitely.
I have my motorcycle license and have been considering getting something that I can ride all day. Only problem is that if it's classified as a motorcycle license I don't think I can take it in the train like a bike if I run out of juice far away.
I know we all carry fully charged batteries in our pockets and sometimes keep them in our ears too.
But something about travelling in crowded and closed space like train with a fully charged diy (or even commercial) battery pack sounds risky.
This is one of the reasons I didn't go for a diy replacement of TWS pair with dead batteries.
I'd be worried about getting into a crash on this bike. (still an awesome project)
I bought an entry level ebike and the range is about 100km on lowest power on flat land, and of course it increases if you drive above 25 km/h.
I don't know what the difference is with what op has, but for me it's no extra issue to drive above the top speed. It's a gradient transition.
I use mine daily and charge it every two or three weeks.
The article mentions using Trespa, which I had to look up. It's a type of cladding that is fire resistant but is also not metal. It's a laminate type. The author is in the Netherlands, the infrastructure there must be really good to be able to ride 160km on an e bike between cities.
EuroVelo will blow your mind.
https://en.eurovelo.com/
It does feel like this is such an untapped market. Think commuters, credit cart tourers, tourism around a spread out city. Something that is safer than a motorcycle and faster than a bike.
In Germany at least the routes are a lot prettier because they go through forests and villages. It's what got me to cycle more and ride my motorcycle less.
It’s only safer than a motorcycle if you have bike friendly infrastructure.
The fact they are kind of slow and you can take them on trains helps compared with motorcycles.
If I'd want more range, I'd go with an extra battery in a backpack.
I would be a bit worried that the extra weight compromises the structural integrity of the frame. 2kWh are heavy
I would be more worried charging that huge home built battery pack. I'm sure OP knows what he's doing, but I wouldn't want to bet my house on it.
high quality heavy 18650s weigh about 2 oz. 190 of them would weigh about 24 lbs. Throw in another 6-10 lbs for bms, wiring, casing and errata and it's not that bad.
Bikes typically have a weight rating. Mine has 150lbs of cargo capacity (is a cargo bike).
I don't know if this figures into the engineering formulas, but an e-bike needs to be stronger due to the higher speeds and power levels. On a human powered bike, if you're hauling 150 pounds, you're probably going pretty slow.
My friends who have e-bikes go through a lot more "consumable" parts such as chains, tires, brakes, cogs, and bearings.
That's why at https://infinite-battery.com we designed a fireproof and waterproof casing for our repairable batteries
... put your (e)bike on a train, that's where the range come from.
Very cool experimentation but in term of making the practice sustainable best to rely on the infrastructure. It's a bit like in sports having to use the big muscles, e.g. you climb with your legs, not with your fingers no matter what super strength grip you have.
Fucking people pushing their ebikes into already crowded trains! You wanted to cycle, go cycle then; don't pester us regulars with your 30kg dirtmachine.
99% of the time it's food delivery workers who have to live in the outer edges of the city while all the orders are in the inner city.
The solution to this problem is to run enough trains that they aren't so crowded a bike wouldn't fit. These people are paying for tickets so their usage should be funding the running of more services.
Where exactly is this train that I should put my e-bike on?
Not everyone lives near mass transit nor in a city
The title should say (2021). Great article.
The aerodynamic situation of a bicycle is so disadvantageous that the easiest way to get a long range e-bike is to simply ride more slowly. People internalize beliefs about energy-range ratios from electric cars, but they don't translate well to bicycles.
Very cool. Thanks for sharing. I have an ebike myself and have considered just strapping extra battery packs to the frame so that I can just swap when required. In the end, I mostly take shorter trips (I’ve had it since Dec and my odo only reads three figures).
Speaking of R&M, I have wanted to get one of their bikes that has the child container area in the front. I saw one guy with one and it looked pretty awesome. A large bike like that would benefit from some larger battery pack. And those have a flat area in front on the frame where you can host a few parallel to the floor (hard in a normal bike frame).
One annoying constraint is that it’s hard to find a place here in America where people won’t tacitly kill children. As more people here become online only child-free characters driving large EVs they don’t think too much about killing children and will only delay someone’s license for a couple of years for doing so.
The hard problem seems to be other people.