When the early adopters start pushing neural implants they'll be ad-free. Not long after your boss insists that everybody needs neural implants for the sake of productivity, they'll be ad-supported but moneyed developers will be able to opt out. The terms of the ad-free service will continue shifting, so nothing is ever really ad-free for long, and ads for better neural implants are promotions not ads right? But y'all are working on neural implants because if you don't, somebody else will, aren't you
When I started playing Shadowrun in the 90s, I thought neural implants were cool and I wanted to get one. Around the time Google started buying up ad companies, I realized that the hardware in my head would never be mine. But yes, I think Black Mirror has done an excellent job with these topics.
This was a throwaway line in the 1995 novel The Diamond Age. The thug knew a guy who had a spinal implant(?) which got hacked and now the guy saw ads across the bottom of his vision for life.
Correct, but they stylized it as "eyePhone" (from MomCorp, the all powerful, caring conglomerate), and that episode is the origin of the famous "Shut up and take my money!" meme.
The real problem here is capitalism. The system needs consumers to spend more and more. A system where nobody profits from you consuming more of something wouldn't have this particular failure mode
True, but you can't affort the none crappy one eventually. Basically everything in modern society trends towards either cheap, but shitty, or excellent, but insanely expensive.
Our problem is that the used to be a huge middle segment, where you'd pay extra, but you got better quality. That middle segment has more or less disappeared, because it requires a fair bit of volume to be sustainable. Initially we, as in society, got lured in by cheaper prices, and reasonable quality, supported by savings in running super markets vs. a butcher, efficiency gains or subsidizes, maybe in the form of an ad here or there. Once we started expecting lower prices, quality started to go down, but restarting the "pay a little more, for better quality" segment isn't easy.
Electricity I don't know how you could deliver ads through, but if someone could think of a way I bet they would. If everyone knew Morris code I bet they would make the lights flicker in Morris code for a discount.
Modern cars with connected infotainment systems are always trying to upsell you
Washing machines I dont know of anything at the moment, but I wouldnt count it out.
Smartphones/watches? Aren't those just ad delivery mechanisms? Not to mention tracking? Its a core foundation of modern ad technology
Headphones are not thank god, I hope it stays that way
> Electricity I don't know how you could deliver ads through
Even if you could, electricity is a utility with laws against disconnecting it in certain circumstances, even for nonpayment, and the internet isn't. So unless someone is going to make the argument that neural implants are utilities, ads injected into them seems like a pretty fair bet unless there is legislation not only making it illegal to do so, but making it illegal to make an implant even capable of receiving or displaying one. At least with that even if they repealed the law you'd be safe if you already had the implant.
Alright let me put on my evil corpo hat. Wait it was already on.
Headphones that inject ads is a great idea but we need to make that a better proposition. Lets say that these headphones have an AI integration which parses all sound and converts it to text, then we can run it through our AI to give helpful comments. We may even wait until no sound is playing to inject them (for now). We can add ads later once it becomes helpful. Imagine you are listening to a podcast / youtube video then you get a helpful voice give additional research and ideas. Like a friendly research agent on your shoulder.
Also more subtly, we can detect what music is playing and “slightly modify” the tunes of bands not part of a label owned by a Trusted Partner to sound worse.
(Morse code messages via your flickering lights would be a hilarious app, and I'm somewhat reluctant to mention it here before someone gets VC funding to actually try it.)
Modern cars gather a truly shocking amount of data about their "users", which is then sold to all and sundry, including those wishing to sell you products.
Taylor's explanation makes sense on its face, but it sets a precedent that's hard to walk back: the LLM context window is now a monetizable surface. Once that's normalized, "here's a recommended package" and "here's a sponsored package" become very hard to distinguish — especially when the AI is the one deciding which to surface. The real concern isn't this specific case, it's that every tool vendor with an MCP server now has a business reason to do the same thing.
> I'm not a Laravel developer and don't generally use PHP apart from one small side project where Claude takes care of the coding for me anyway. I've never tried Laravel Cloud so I don't know whether it fits into either of the descriptions above.
Taylor's response to a similar thread on Reddit[1]:
Hey all! Kinda surprised this has "taken off" haha
It has nothing to do with raising money. It has everything to do with the fact that based on the data we have, there is a large increase in the number of people trying Laravel who haven't coded before or are getting deeper into web development for the first time. That is a good thing!
The previous guidelines would have potentially directed them to configure Nginx or FrankenPHP manually, and while that is certainly possible for experienced devs, it's not the path to success for someone new to the framework.
We want them to be able to get their projects online as smoothly as possible, so that hopefully they become a long-lasting member of our awesome community.
It is no secret that PHP has a "pipeline problem". If you look at the year-over-year data from GitHub, PHP developers only grew 5%, JavaScript + TypeScript grew almost 90%. We have to get more people into our community and enjoying what's possible here. Previously, learning PHP from scratch was a barrier, now, thanks to AI, it's not. This is a unique opportunity to dramatically expand who can bring their ideas to life using Laravel.
In fact, I already have friends in "real life" who are building Laravel apps. They have never coded before.
Does that mean Laravel is going to just cater to "vibe coders"? Absolutely not. We're still building deeply technical features and content for experienced devs who are operating at high scale. But, it is existentially important to the health of the ecosystem and PHP itself that we do a good job getting people up and running on Laravel. They aren't going to know as much as you guys - even Forge can be overwhelming to them. Cloud gives them a simple on-ramp to production that doesn't require much technical knowledge. This is there to facilitate that.
That being said, we've moved this guideline to a "deployment" guideline folder so it's easy to disable or modify or remove to have your own deployment recommendations built right into your Boost install. And, of course, Boost itself is not included with Laravel by default.
The fun fact about PHP is that, there is no Pipeline problem at all. You can serve your scripts the hell you like to do. You can scale as you wish, either with vertical or horizontal. You can use Apache, nginx, etc, no one cares.
Yeah, PHP is very simple to deploy, once you have either apache/nginx/caddy/$webserver and also PHP-cgi/PHP-fpm/$php-backend and also understand unix + permissions + files and a whole lot of other things. Or alternatively, learn how to use cPanel as a user, or worse, learn what (s)FTP is, or whatever the really low end web hosters use nowadays.
I wish others learnt the "boring" way of managing your own servers, setting things up as they should, deploy processes and what not, but realistically, some people just want to run one command/click a button and have it updated, and probably that's for the better too. This Laravel Cloud thing are for those, not for people who want to/know how to run their own servers.
Actively push you to use their build(and configuration!) service, and actively create/maintain friction for building and publishing production apps without it.
If you're using a company's product to get advice or do work, you should probably expect that product to be heavily biased towards that company and its affiliates. It's not your own employee, who would presumably act with the best interests of your organization in mind. It's not even your own agent. If that's what you want, the product simply isn't for you.
> By contrast, Ruby on Rails is backed by a foundation that launched with about $1M from sponsors like Shopify and GitHub.
So, not disagreeing on this being an issue for Laravel abusing users, but in particular the role of Shopify in the ruby ecosystem is, in my opinion (and that of many others) a net-negative. Look at how many ruby developers got ultimately fired when rubygems.org (ok, not rubygems.org but RubyCentral, but they now control rubygems.org and the main moderator on ruby reddit is an employee of RubyCentral, thus a conflict of interest exists now on ruby reddit) decided it must become a shopify-corporation project only.
Author here, I was actually surprised to learn this too. I reached for Ruby and Django as examples of non commerical frameworks and before writing this I didn't know about the $1M backing either.
I guess I'd have a hard time turning down that kind of money for something I cared about so no judgement to the creators who make the choices but I do think it's something we need to understand the effects of as community members
I actually wrote this before on reddit, before I eventually
left reddit due to the censorship. KDE changed a lot and Nate
asked for donations via a daemon. I pointed out that we now
need to undo pester-ads added by KDE developers. Lo and behold,
I was cancelled on #kde reddit. I still think we need something
like ublock origin but for EVERYTHING, not just the browser.
ublock origin is great for browsers, but there is a lot more
that should be filtered away; take bad UI choices made by
upstream, not even an ad. Some software allows fine-tuning,
where the user can customize the project a bit (firefox UI
for instance, you can modify it). We need this on the whole
operating system level, not just the browser. That way, as
a convenient side effect, Laravel could no longer abuse users
like that.
I live an ad-free life (well, digital life ... in reallife I
still get pointless ads shown). I think every human being
should have the option to not have to see ANY ads. The more
the industry complains about it, the more I censor away
such ad-monsters.
I agree that there's a strong need for ad blockers nowadays. I also use uBlock Origin on all my browsers. But I'm not sure if a world that is completely devoid of advertising would... work. Advertising (in some form) is a necessary evil, I think.
Any business needs customers to make revenue and, well, exist. So any business needs to have some way to make themselves known to potential customers.
In the case of Laravel, they offer an open source framework completely for free, and pay for the development man hours through their commercial offerings, e.g. Laravel Cloud. That commercial offering is not bad: they offer a very smooth way to deploy your Laravel project. In order for the offering to make any revenue, potential customers need to know that it exists, at least. They're still free to choose whether they want to use that commercial offering, or if they want to deploy their project on their own.
Previously, making sure people knew Laravel Cloud existed was done through the Laravel home page. But nowadays more and more people "consume" a framework's documentation through their AI tooling, and they no longer visit the home page.
In a comment [0], which is conveniently being left out of both TFA and most comments on HN, the maintainer even explains that the addition was not meant as a literal advertisement, but as a way to make sure new users of the framework at least _know_ that they can deploy their application on Laravel Cloud. And they are even actively asking for suggestions on how to rephrase the addition so that the AI Tooling does not see it as "you MUST use Laravel Cloud" gospel.
I also block ads everywhere I can, but I have to admit that an open source project such as KDE showing once a year a simple text notification asking their users to consider making a donation has nothing to do with a commercial ads in my opinion.
I agree with you about the KDE ads. I also complained about it on Reddit and was downvoted for it. There are way more appropriate ways to communicate this information that isn't a desktop notification.
Enjoy this time when manipulation in LLM output is still clearly identifiable. There's no chance that the endgame isn't something a lot more subtle and seamless.
“How dare a guy work on technology for 1.248 million minutes, take VC funding gambling that he can improve the ecosystem for everyone using it, and then have the audacity, the unmitigated gall, to ask me to consider his products with it only taking one minute for me to opt out!”
It's the way he's doing it. The entire ecosystem is just one giant ad for various paid projects. It's one thing to offer paid services, there are users out there that want to use them or need to use them, that's not the issue. From my perspective Laravel became a huge ad with purposely bad documentation that ends up directing unknowing users into using features, libraries and products that will lead them into paying for things that they might not need. Everything in Laravel recently is set up so that users folow documentation and best practices to end up using whatever subscriptions and paid products they offer (and then in some case pull the plug on them and come up with something new, abandoning whatever UI library they made people buy 1 year ago).
> that he can improve the ecosystem for everyone using it [...] to ask me to consider his products with it only taking one minute for me to opt out
Seems you misunderstand the issue. Anyone not deploying to Laravel Cloud but using that project seems to be impacted by this, even going so far that agents are confused about it and keeps insisting users should deploy to Laravel Cloud instead.
Maybe I'm a grumpy old developer, but that does not sound like "improve the ecosystem for everyone using it", sounds like good old spam taken to the next level.
Taylor Otwell has been full-time on Laravel since 2015. 260 work days per year, 8 hours per day, for a decade = 1.248 million minutes.
And you're complaining it's spam that he's inconvenienced you into adding a sentence to your agents file. This, right here, is why I will never write open-source software of any significant size.
> And you're complaining it's spam that he's inconvenienced you into adding a sentence to your agents file.
I don't care how something happened, I care about the results. If you do stuff to my tooling that makes it less efficient, I'm gonna not like that, regardless how many minutes you spent on something, or if it's FOSS or not.
If you can't handle feedback from developers about what you're doing to their environment then please, do not write and publish open-source software, you'll be doing us all a favor.
Laravel has been apparently profitable for quite some time; they've long had a paid ecosystem with things like Forge, Vapor, paid components, etc.
I don't think it's unfair to be wary of the shift to VC funding and stuff like this that really feels like it wouldn't have been a thing prior to that.
I think I'm saying the opposite on point 3. He has no _obligation_ to us and has full rights to 'take away' as he sees fit, but we still have the right to give our opinion about that process, and to make comparisons and contrasts with other similar products that are run differently
If you think somehow publishing FOSS means you get some right to decide how people use it, or anything besides the licensing of the code, you severely misunderstand what exactly FOSS is about.
Free and libre and open source are all different things, and the confusion thereof can lead to mismatched expectations.
It's not wrong to beg for money, but I'm also not going to joyfully tolerate a hassle because of gratitude or appreciation for past decisions the beggar made without my input.
Tip: Nobody can meaningfully conceptualize or care about the number of minutes. "Ten years" would've been fine, and more convincing.
He didn't have to give it away for free and turn to adware.
I understand that he wants to get paid for his work, but he can charge for it like everybody else. No need to be a asshole by building the product for "free" and then bundling ad-ware.
On one hand, I hate how much of a hype-driven commercial product Laravel is, and how many novice developers learn bad practices from its awful architecture.
On the other hand, this "problem" only affects vibe coders who weren't writing any code themselves anyway, so I say let them suffer.
While architecture astronauts are clutching pearls, I've built multiple profitable products with Laravel without caring the slighest about the internals, both before and after AI.
PHP was always all about just building stuff while ignoring code quality. Laravel is a natural extension of that approach. Let us live.
No, Symfony is singlehandedly keeping PHP relevant, to the point that every other framework depends on its packages, Laravel included.
Most people like you who don't care about code quality and want to "just build" another B2B SaaS unmaintainable pile of spaghetti are now purely relying on AI and not writing any code themselves anymore, so why use PHP at all instead of JS like all the other vibe coders?
> so why use PHP at all instead of JS like all the other vibe coders?
Because there is nothing remotely close to Laravel for JS. I don't want to think about auth, job queues, mailing, cache layers, auditing etc. I want an opinionated default from my framework that is thoroughly documented and part of the AI training corpus. Laravel gives that to me.
In addition to what /u/bakugo already said, they also have custom global magic functions all over the place.
The code discipline and patterns they encourage are so bad that they had to wrap PhpUnit into their own version of the unit test framework named Pest, because PhpUnit intentionally discourages those patterns natively.
The prime example I'll always reach for is the fact that it makes use of PHP classes to represent database entities, but not really - the """classes""" don't actually declare any of their properties, it's all dynamically injected at runtime from the database columns. You need a Laravel-specific IDE plugin just to get basic code completion and static analysis.
When the early adopters start pushing neural implants they'll be ad-free. Not long after your boss insists that everybody needs neural implants for the sake of productivity, they'll be ad-supported but moneyed developers will be able to opt out. The terms of the ad-free service will continue shifting, so nothing is ever really ad-free for long, and ads for better neural implants are promotions not ads right? But y'all are working on neural implants because if you don't, somebody else will, aren't you
There’s a black mirror episode about this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_People_(Black_Mirror)
And this is how it'll look like: https://vimeo.com/166807261
I love and hate that movie.
I think this was the plot of a Black Mirror episode?
When I started playing Shadowrun in the 90s, I thought neural implants were cool and I wanted to get one. Around the time Google started buying up ad companies, I realized that the hardware in my head would never be mine. But yes, I think Black Mirror has done an excellent job with these topics.
In the '90s I was ready to jack in. More computers, and getting me closer to them? Awesome.
By the 20-teens I was repulsed by the idea and kinda hated computers.
Today if you put a magic button in front of me that'd permanently un-invent the Internet, good odds I'd press it.
This was a throwaway line in the 1995 novel The Diamond Age. The thug knew a guy who had a spinal implant(?) which got hacked and now the guy saw ads across the bottom of his vision for life.
Yep. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_People_(Black_Mirror)
Futurama too (The Eye-Phone, or something).
It's the plot of many a dystopian scifi story.
Correct, but they stylized it as "eyePhone" (from MomCorp, the all powerful, caring conglomerate), and that episode is the origin of the famous "Shut up and take my money!" meme.
Neuralink and OpenAI were started months apart in the same tiny building. Draw your own conclusions.
Blink twice to Accept the Terms and Conditions.
The real problem here is capitalism. The system needs consumers to spend more and more. A system where nobody profits from you consuming more of something wouldn't have this particular failure mode
Except this hasn't happened with electricity, cars, washing machines, smartphones, smart watches, Bluetooth headphones, ...
Not all technology is bad
It has absolutely happened with those things.
Cars: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sceLsLkQf7A
Fridges: https://fortune.com/2025/09/19/samsung-family-hub-refrigerat...
I'm not aware of a smart watch doing first-party ads yet.
I didn't list fridges because I've seen ads there, but these seem to have gone away in newer models (people don't like ads)
My washing machine's app (LG) has ads, recipes, rewards programs, etc.
I think the main thing preventing it on the device itself is they haven't thus far needed a large screen to show them on.
Recipes? For washing clothes?
Yes. LG has a wide line of appliances, so the app has a recipes section.
The existence of a single crappy car does not mean all cars are crappy
True, but you can't affort the none crappy one eventually. Basically everything in modern society trends towards either cheap, but shitty, or excellent, but insanely expensive.
Our problem is that the used to be a huge middle segment, where you'd pay extra, but you got better quality. That middle segment has more or less disappeared, because it requires a fair bit of volume to be sustainable. Initially we, as in society, got lured in by cheaper prices, and reasonable quality, supported by savings in running super markets vs. a butcher, efficiency gains or subsidizes, maybe in the form of an ad here or there. Once we started expecting lower prices, quality started to go down, but restarting the "pay a little more, for better quality" segment isn't easy.
If only it was just a single crappy car.
https://www.mozillafoundation.org/en/privacynotincluded/arti...
Sure.
But the existence of a single crappy car establishes very definitively that a crappy car can and does exist.
Do you think Samsung's the only company that's gonna play with ads on their smart fridges?
It's not a good reason to be skeptical about cars as a technology (and by analogy brain computer interfaces)
I think it's pretty solid evidence profit-driven orgs will shove ads anywhere they can, regardless of how good that is for users.
Electricity I don't know how you could deliver ads through, but if someone could think of a way I bet they would. If everyone knew Morris code I bet they would make the lights flicker in Morris code for a discount.
Modern cars with connected infotainment systems are always trying to upsell you
Washing machines I dont know of anything at the moment, but I wouldnt count it out.
Smartphones/watches? Aren't those just ad delivery mechanisms? Not to mention tracking? Its a core foundation of modern ad technology
Headphones are not thank god, I hope it stays that way
> Electricity I don't know how you could deliver ads through
Even if you could, electricity is a utility with laws against disconnecting it in certain circumstances, even for nonpayment, and the internet isn't. So unless someone is going to make the argument that neural implants are utilities, ads injected into them seems like a pretty fair bet unless there is legislation not only making it illegal to do so, but making it illegal to make an implant even capable of receiving or displaying one. At least with that even if they repealed the law you'd be safe if you already had the implant.
That's a great Freudian slip.
Morse code - dots and dashes for characters via light or telegraph or radio
Morris code - Robert Morris wrote the first internet worm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_worm
Alright let me put on my evil corpo hat. Wait it was already on.
Headphones that inject ads is a great idea but we need to make that a better proposition. Lets say that these headphones have an AI integration which parses all sound and converts it to text, then we can run it through our AI to give helpful comments. We may even wait until no sound is playing to inject them (for now). We can add ads later once it becomes helpful. Imagine you are listening to a podcast / youtube video then you get a helpful voice give additional research and ideas. Like a friendly research agent on your shoulder.
Also more subtly, we can detect what music is playing and “slightly modify” the tunes of bands not part of a label owned by a Trusted Partner to sound worse.
I've never seen an ad delivered through any of these things. On smartphones I mean the phone/OS itself
It would be very easy to deliver ads via electricity. The utility could require you watch an ad before using more
Or via your smart thermostat.
https://sense.com/consumer-blog/with-your-permission-utiliti...
(Morse code messages via your flickering lights would be a hilarious app, and I'm somewhat reluctant to mention it here before someone gets VC funding to actually try it.)
> It would be very easy to deliver ads via electricity. The utility could require you watch an ad before using more.
That does not sound very easy to me. That sounds barely possible.
Modern cars gather a truly shocking amount of data about their "users", which is then sold to all and sundry, including those wishing to sell you products.
My LG dryer was using wifi to advertise an extended warranty for itself.
Then it broke, maybe I should have bought the warranty?
I bought a simpler model without wifi this time.
What are you talking about, in what way is this supposed to be an argument about ads? It sounds like your dryer broke
Taylor's explanation makes sense on its face, but it sets a precedent that's hard to walk back: the LLM context window is now a monetizable surface. Once that's normalized, "here's a recommended package" and "here's a sponsored package" become very hard to distinguish — especially when the AI is the one deciding which to surface. The real concern isn't this specific case, it's that every tool vendor with an MCP server now has a business reason to do the same thing.
Here's the change if anyone is interested: https://github.com/laravel/boost/pull/758/changes/589394c44a...
For me it is not the right move, one thing is letting users know Laravel Cloud is an option and another one is removing any alternative from the text
Ooof. Yeah, this is not a good sign. I enjoy Laravel (and even Laravel Cloud), but this clearly doesn't belong in Boost.
> Do we let people feed ads to our agents?
"Our" agents?
> I'm not a Laravel developer and don't generally use PHP apart from one small side project where Claude takes care of the coding for me anyway. I've never tried Laravel Cloud so I don't know whether it fits into either of the descriptions above.
Taylor's response to a similar thread on Reddit[1]:
Hey all! Kinda surprised this has "taken off" haha
It has nothing to do with raising money. It has everything to do with the fact that based on the data we have, there is a large increase in the number of people trying Laravel who haven't coded before or are getting deeper into web development for the first time. That is a good thing!
The previous guidelines would have potentially directed them to configure Nginx or FrankenPHP manually, and while that is certainly possible for experienced devs, it's not the path to success for someone new to the framework.
We want them to be able to get their projects online as smoothly as possible, so that hopefully they become a long-lasting member of our awesome community.
It is no secret that PHP has a "pipeline problem". If you look at the year-over-year data from GitHub, PHP developers only grew 5%, JavaScript + TypeScript grew almost 90%. We have to get more people into our community and enjoying what's possible here. Previously, learning PHP from scratch was a barrier, now, thanks to AI, it's not. This is a unique opportunity to dramatically expand who can bring their ideas to life using Laravel.
In fact, I already have friends in "real life" who are building Laravel apps. They have never coded before.
Does that mean Laravel is going to just cater to "vibe coders"? Absolutely not. We're still building deeply technical features and content for experienced devs who are operating at high scale. But, it is existentially important to the health of the ecosystem and PHP itself that we do a good job getting people up and running on Laravel. They aren't going to know as much as you guys - even Forge can be overwhelming to them. Cloud gives them a simple on-ramp to production that doesn't require much technical knowledge. This is there to facilitate that.
That being said, we've moved this guideline to a "deployment" guideline folder so it's easy to disable or modify or remove to have your own deployment recommendations built right into your Boost install. And, of course, Boost itself is not included with Laravel by default.
[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/laravel/comments/1sn70d7/laravel_ad...
The fun fact about PHP is that, there is no Pipeline problem at all. You can serve your scripts the hell you like to do. You can scale as you wish, either with vertical or horizontal. You can use Apache, nginx, etc, no one cares.
Yeah, PHP is very simple to deploy, once you have either apache/nginx/caddy/$webserver and also PHP-cgi/PHP-fpm/$php-backend and also understand unix + permissions + files and a whole lot of other things. Or alternatively, learn how to use cPanel as a user, or worse, learn what (s)FTP is, or whatever the really low end web hosters use nowadays.
I wish others learnt the "boring" way of managing your own servers, setting things up as they should, deploy processes and what not, but realistically, some people just want to run one command/click a button and have it updated, and probably that's for the better too. This Laravel Cloud thing are for those, not for people who want to/know how to run their own servers.
Oooh it’s for the children!
This isn't all that "new" or crazy. How about Expo and React Native?
What does Expo / React native do?
Actively push you to use their build(and configuration!) service, and actively create/maintain friction for building and publishing production apps without it.
I love this. Let the clankers pay the bills.
Interesting, thanks for the reference. I wonder what other products do this
> We should fund open source!
> Not like that!
Wow Taylor, if you read this: as someone who just bought in to the Laravel ecosystem, how about no?
If you're using a company's product to get advice or do work, you should probably expect that product to be heavily biased towards that company and its affiliates. It's not your own employee, who would presumably act with the best interests of your organization in mind. It's not even your own agent. If that's what you want, the product simply isn't for you.
The tool is open source. If it bothers you, fork it and remove the line in the prompt.
Avoid VC funding at all costs
By the way, one quick comment:
> By contrast, Ruby on Rails is backed by a foundation that launched with about $1M from sponsors like Shopify and GitHub.
So, not disagreeing on this being an issue for Laravel abusing users, but in particular the role of Shopify in the ruby ecosystem is, in my opinion (and that of many others) a net-negative. Look at how many ruby developers got ultimately fired when rubygems.org (ok, not rubygems.org but RubyCentral, but they now control rubygems.org and the main moderator on ruby reddit is an employee of RubyCentral, thus a conflict of interest exists now on ruby reddit) decided it must become a shopify-corporation project only.
Author here, I was actually surprised to learn this too. I reached for Ruby and Django as examples of non commerical frameworks and before writing this I didn't know about the $1M backing either.
I guess I'd have a hard time turning down that kind of money for something I cared about so no judgement to the creators who make the choices but I do think it's something we need to understand the effects of as community members
We need ublock origin EVERYWHERE.
I actually wrote this before on reddit, before I eventually left reddit due to the censorship. KDE changed a lot and Nate asked for donations via a daemon. I pointed out that we now need to undo pester-ads added by KDE developers. Lo and behold, I was cancelled on #kde reddit. I still think we need something like ublock origin but for EVERYTHING, not just the browser. ublock origin is great for browsers, but there is a lot more that should be filtered away; take bad UI choices made by upstream, not even an ad. Some software allows fine-tuning, where the user can customize the project a bit (firefox UI for instance, you can modify it). We need this on the whole operating system level, not just the browser. That way, as a convenient side effect, Laravel could no longer abuse users like that.
I live an ad-free life (well, digital life ... in reallife I still get pointless ads shown). I think every human being should have the option to not have to see ANY ads. The more the industry complains about it, the more I censor away such ad-monsters.
I agree that there's a strong need for ad blockers nowadays. I also use uBlock Origin on all my browsers. But I'm not sure if a world that is completely devoid of advertising would... work. Advertising (in some form) is a necessary evil, I think.
Any business needs customers to make revenue and, well, exist. So any business needs to have some way to make themselves known to potential customers.
In the case of Laravel, they offer an open source framework completely for free, and pay for the development man hours through their commercial offerings, e.g. Laravel Cloud. That commercial offering is not bad: they offer a very smooth way to deploy your Laravel project. In order for the offering to make any revenue, potential customers need to know that it exists, at least. They're still free to choose whether they want to use that commercial offering, or if they want to deploy their project on their own.
Previously, making sure people knew Laravel Cloud existed was done through the Laravel home page. But nowadays more and more people "consume" a framework's documentation through their AI tooling, and they no longer visit the home page.
In a comment [0], which is conveniently being left out of both TFA and most comments on HN, the maintainer even explains that the addition was not meant as a literal advertisement, but as a way to make sure new users of the framework at least _know_ that they can deploy their application on Laravel Cloud. And they are even actively asking for suggestions on how to rephrase the addition so that the AI Tooling does not see it as "you MUST use Laravel Cloud" gospel.
[0]: https://github.com/laravel/boost/pull/758#issuecomment-42589...
I also block ads everywhere I can, but I have to admit that an open source project such as KDE showing once a year a simple text notification asking their users to consider making a donation has nothing to do with a commercial ads in my opinion.
Great. Let's remove all ads and end up all and any form of subdized work. Now, tell me how much you will be contributing to KDE?
I'm using KDE as my daily driver and haven't noticed any ads so far. Where can I find these pester-ads?
The notification only exists since Plasma 6.2 (august 2024) [1]. Maybe some Linux distribution disable it?
[1] https://pointieststick.com/2024/08/28/asking-for-donations-i...
Ah, thanks for the link.
While I don't remember seeing the notification, I think a yearly (!) system notification doesn't exactly qualify as pestering.
I guess they mean this https://invent.kde.org/plasma/plasma-workspace/-/merge_reque...
I agree with you about the KDE ads. I also complained about it on Reddit and was downvoted for it. There are way more appropriate ways to communicate this information that isn't a desktop notification.
Every time tech invents something amazing, the enshittification follows shortly thereafter.
I only had to wait 8 years but I can finally text my old co-worker that Laravel is in fact, shit.
Laravel is shit because the optional, not required by default Boost package includes an ad?
Enjoy this time when manipulation in LLM output is still clearly identifiable. There's no chance that the endgame isn't something a lot more subtle and seamless.
Another one bits the dust.
“How dare a guy work on technology for 1.248 million minutes, take VC funding gambling that he can improve the ecosystem for everyone using it, and then have the audacity, the unmitigated gall, to ask me to consider his products with it only taking one minute for me to opt out!”
https://x.com/taylorotwell/status/1534178479201259520
I really don't think he's hurting for funds.
The headline wasn't "Taylor Otwell bought a Lambo in 2022 and now injects ads...".
VCs typically want a return on their 57 million dollar investment.
> VCs typically want a return on their 57 million dollar investment.
And people warned about this when they announced it.
This is a sign those warnings were valid.
And that's the start of the enshittification.
It's the way he's doing it. The entire ecosystem is just one giant ad for various paid projects. It's one thing to offer paid services, there are users out there that want to use them or need to use them, that's not the issue. From my perspective Laravel became a huge ad with purposely bad documentation that ends up directing unknowing users into using features, libraries and products that will lead them into paying for things that they might not need. Everything in Laravel recently is set up so that users folow documentation and best practices to end up using whatever subscriptions and paid products they offer (and then in some case pull the plug on them and come up with something new, abandoning whatever UI library they made people buy 1 year ago).
> that he can improve the ecosystem for everyone using it [...] to ask me to consider his products with it only taking one minute for me to opt out
Seems you misunderstand the issue. Anyone not deploying to Laravel Cloud but using that project seems to be impacted by this, even going so far that agents are confused about it and keeps insisting users should deploy to Laravel Cloud instead.
Maybe I'm a grumpy old developer, but that does not sound like "improve the ecosystem for everyone using it", sounds like good old spam taken to the next level.
Yes, you're a grumpy old developer.
Taylor Otwell has been full-time on Laravel since 2015. 260 work days per year, 8 hours per day, for a decade = 1.248 million minutes.
And you're complaining it's spam that he's inconvenienced you into adding a sentence to your agents file. This, right here, is why I will never write open-source software of any significant size.
> And you're complaining it's spam that he's inconvenienced you into adding a sentence to your agents file.
I don't care how something happened, I care about the results. If you do stuff to my tooling that makes it less efficient, I'm gonna not like that, regardless how many minutes you spent on something, or if it's FOSS or not.
If you can't handle feedback from developers about what you're doing to their environment then please, do not write and publish open-source software, you'll be doing us all a favor.
Laravel has been apparently profitable for quite some time; they've long had a paid ecosystem with things like Forge, Vapor, paid components, etc.
I don't think it's unfair to be wary of the shift to VC funding and stuff like this that really feels like it wouldn't have been a thing prior to that.
He has no obligations to us as we did not pay him, but we also have the right to call out stuff we think is wrong as he didn't pay us
That's called a parasitic relationship. Think about it:
1. I have the right to take as I please
2. I have the right to criticize the giver as I please
3. The giver has zero right to take from me in any way
I think that's morally repugnant. If this is what open source means, I'm joining Microsoft and I will be the one writing the Halloween papers.
I think I'm saying the opposite on point 3. He has no _obligation_ to us and has full rights to 'take away' as he sees fit, but we still have the right to give our opinion about that process, and to make comparisons and contrasts with other similar products that are run differently
If you think somehow publishing FOSS means you get some right to decide how people use it, or anything besides the licensing of the code, you severely misunderstand what exactly FOSS is about.
If you don't like it, don't release software under that license.
You should use seconds to make it even more dramatic
Free and libre and open source are all different things, and the confusion thereof can lead to mismatched expectations.
It's not wrong to beg for money, but I'm also not going to joyfully tolerate a hassle because of gratitude or appreciation for past decisions the beggar made without my input.
Tip: Nobody can meaningfully conceptualize or care about the number of minutes. "Ten years" would've been fine, and more convincing.
"How dare people want to spend a portion of their lives not being advertised to."
There are plenty of ways to promote your product. Injecting ads into agents and PR's is not the way to do it.
He didn't have to give it away for free and turn to adware.
I understand that he wants to get paid for his work, but he can charge for it like everybody else. No need to be a asshole by building the product for "free" and then bundling ad-ware.
On one hand, I hate how much of a hype-driven commercial product Laravel is, and how many novice developers learn bad practices from its awful architecture.
On the other hand, this "problem" only affects vibe coders who weren't writing any code themselves anyway, so I say let them suffer.
>hype-driven commercial product
>single-handedly keeping PHP relevant
While architecture astronauts are clutching pearls, I've built multiple profitable products with Laravel without caring the slighest about the internals, both before and after AI.
PHP was always all about just building stuff while ignoring code quality. Laravel is a natural extension of that approach. Let us live.
No, Symfony is singlehandedly keeping PHP relevant, to the point that every other framework depends on its packages, Laravel included.
Most people like you who don't care about code quality and want to "just build" another B2B SaaS unmaintainable pile of spaghetti are now purely relying on AI and not writing any code themselves anymore, so why use PHP at all instead of JS like all the other vibe coders?
> so why use PHP at all instead of JS like all the other vibe coders?
Because there is nothing remotely close to Laravel for JS. I don't want to think about auth, job queues, mailing, cache layers, auditing etc. I want an opinionated default from my framework that is thoroughly documented and part of the AI training corpus. Laravel gives that to me.
I don’t do laravel but which bad practices are you referring to?
50/50 chance it's a complaint about Facades, heh.
In addition to what /u/bakugo already said, they also have custom global magic functions all over the place.
The code discipline and patterns they encourage are so bad that they had to wrap PhpUnit into their own version of the unit test framework named Pest, because PhpUnit intentionally discourages those patterns natively.
The prime example I'll always reach for is the fact that it makes use of PHP classes to represent database entities, but not really - the """classes""" don't actually declare any of their properties, it's all dynamically injected at runtime from the database columns. You need a Laravel-specific IDE plugin just to get basic code completion and static analysis.
And yeah, there's also facades.
This is PHP