Hey all, I'm the author of this game. I didn't expect to see it on HN! I wrote it to add some fun to all the conversations happening in the local forums about this roundabout. They've been heated at times. And, yes, this roundabout is right next to the Kirkland Costco.
I definitely agree with all the critiques of the gameplay - and I have about 100 more. I cut it down to the bare essentials to get it done while it's still relevant in the community. I wouldn't even call it an MVP. I probably won't update this unless there is some greater need. Though using Godot with Claude Code was a blast so I'm motivated to do new stuff there. I've been building solutions on Unity/DX/Unreal for over a decade - Godot was such a breath of fresh air!
Too easy. In the UK there are far more torturous roundabouts, for example, Five Ways in Birmingham, notable because you have to inch forward up a hill, always in traffic, typically with a manual gearbox, to finally get to the roundabout where the three lanes of traffic seems to already be doing 50 mph, meaning that you have to channel your drag racing skills to just get on there, without slipping backwards, damaging the clutch or coming a cropper.
London has some specials too, including the traffic around Hyde Park Corner, which is like a roundabout in vacuum form. Should so much as a square foot of tarmac become vacant then it will magically suck in four taxis, two double decker buses and a dozen UberEats delivery guys, making any progress tough.
Chiswick roundabout, where the M4 motorway, gateway to the West, begins is also not for those lacking testicular fortitude, my mum got stuck going round and round that one, we weren't quite dizzy by the time we got off, but it was getting that way.
All is nothing though. You have got to do France, Arc de Triomphe. Cobblestones, many, many lanes, every car with dents in it and priority given to those entering the roundabout rather than those on it already. No American in an American vehicle would be able to make it through that one!
I think the "peanut" shape of the transit roundabout is not final. They're going to straighten the sides to make it more of a race-track shape. Having straight sides allows the busses to align themselves better with the curbs for passenger access. That rendering is a bit nonsense, its outright missing the 85th/114th intersection
The buses will at least have an easier time, they should be all trained for how to navigate it if it's on their route, and there's much less traffic on the bus-only part.
So many comments talking about how straightforward some roundabouts are, but I think you guys are confused. Roundabouts are never straightforward, you're thinking of a normal road.
I've been driving roundabouts for decades, and think they're great - they really help with traffic flow. I've never found them confusing.
I had to drive this specific Kirkland roundabout the other day, and ended up missing my offramp and going in completely the wrong direction. It's the most confusing roundabout I've ever seen.
People (including me) are getting flat tires. There's an obstruction jutting out into the road in going west on 85th to South on 405. It's a few inches high, very sharp, and right into the pathway. We've filed a complaint but it's still there.
I live moments away from this roundabout. It's confusing. Single-lane roundabouts are really straightforward. You're either clear to enter, or you're not.
Adding lanes makes it far more confusing. I consider myself, you know, pretty smart. Not stupid, at least.
But I almost sideswiped someone in this roundabout the other day. Years of driving experience gave me an intuition that the middle lane would not cross over the outer lane. E.x. a car in the inner lane would not pass through the outer lane (except at the very end). So when I saw an oncoming car in the inner lane I thoguht I was safe to enter the outer lane. Not so. The inner lane car was actually lane-changing to the outer lane (at the exact point I was about to enter the roundabout) in order to exit.
The lanes are quite narrow, and the outer curb is deceptive - there’s a 1” edge with a curved curb behind it making it look wider than it actually is. Scraping along that edge will push cars into the center of the road. There will be a lot of minor accidents here due to the road design.
One other second order effect - people are getting used to roundabouts here now, but nearby are ‘traffic circles’ that are roundabouts with stop signs on some entrances. People are now ignoring those stop signs (because it’s a roundabout!). I almost hit 3 cars in 2 intersections as people ignored their stop sign.
It's more complex than that. I live in Seattle near a street that has these traffic circles. The design is:
* There is a round obstruction in the middle of the intersection like a roundabout.
* The street going north-south through the intersection does not have a stop sign.
* The street going east-west has stop signs on both sides.
* But the north-south street which doesn't have to stop also has speed humps on it to slow drivers down.
On its face, this seems like a totally bananas design. The street that should be efficient by not having to stop has traffic calming speed humps on it anyway, negating the efficiency. The cross streets get none of the efficiency of a roundabout because they have to stop anyway. And the combination of roundabout and stop signs is very confusing to drivers.
It makes no sense... if you assume the intersection is designed entirely for cars.
But it isn't, it's a "neighborhood greenway"[1]. The north-south street is designed to improve bicycle traffic. The speed humps don't slow cyclists down. The roundabout middle and stop signs on the cross streets make it safer for cyclists to cruise through the intersection without stopping.
If you ever bike commute, you quickly learn how lethal a lot of stopping and going is for cycling. The effort and efficiency really only make sense if you can go a fairly steady speed for much of your commute. Accelerating a bike is a lot of work.
Once you factor in bikes, the design of these intersections makes more sense. At least in theory. In practice, though people are consistently confused by "roundabout + stop signs" and I see drivers blow through those stop signs more than I've ever seen any other traffic violation by a large margin. Because of that, cyclists and drivers going north-south still have to be paranoid going into the intersection. Even though they have the right of way, there's about a 25% chance the other driver won't stop anyway.
It was a good idea, and maybe the execution will work out once people get more educated. But right now it's a mess. I walk along that street often and I spend a lot of time gesticulating wildly at drivers when they blow through those stop signs.
I live by a bunch of these, but worse IMO is the "four way intersection with no signs or circle or anything" where you just kind of hope no one comes fast and hits you (I imagine on a bike where you wouldn't stop if there was a sign this is even more dangerous). Seattle is weird. Traffic circle with stop signs is fine by me, they don't really function well as roundabouts for most cars, anyways, some of them are too cramped to actually go all the way around smoothly.
> worse IMO is the "four way intersection with no signs or circle or anything" where you just kind of hope no one comes fast and hits you
Agreed, totally. That's what this street used to be before they converted it. I hated driving it because I had to crawl through each intersection because you never knew if someone was going to just blow through it or not. It was even slower than a four-way stop.
Hah! Yeah I also live on a neighborhood greenway street with a traffic circle in Seattle and the odd stop sign layout. It confused me for a year until I learned about the greenway program.
Seattle has plenty of traffic circles just laying around that predate the greenway program though.
I almost never see Seattle drivers blow through stop signs though, maybe people in my neighborhood are just more chill? :D
Mine was converted to a greenway pretty recently, so it may be that drivers just have old habits from before when those intersections didn't have any stop signs.
Good to hear they are adding more green ways! I love the program and I feel they are safer (and a lot more affordable) than "bike lanes" on arterial streets that are often just a painted line.
Seems reasonable. Of course there are really good (true) roundabout designs that are great of cycling (and walking), but without understanding the space it's hard to know if they would fit / work well.
What they're talking about is basically a small concrete circle (sometimes it's not a circle, but a round-ish shape vaguely near the center) plopped down in a standard residential intersection (sometimes with a lot of stuff in it that blocks the view in case you were worried about knowing if someone is crossing the street on the other side). Better designs likely wouldn't fit without raising the cost a huge amount.
> Single-lane roundabouts are really straightforward
Like the Arc de Triomphe roundabout? :)
If it had lane marking there would apparently be 10 tracks around the circle.
What makes it seem crazy is cars entering have right of way.
The reason it works seems to be French attitude. Cars entering do their thing, and cars already going around do their thing (and just have to avoid anyone on their right).
> What makes it seem crazy is cars entering have right of way.
The thing that’s bananas is that this is a City of Paris rule. In the rest of France, traffic entering a roundabout must yield. Not inside Paris. Better make sure you know this!
And even more crazy, the Periphérique, the controlled-access ring road around Paris which tends to move at 40-50mph, is a city street and so traffic entering that highway-like “street” also has right-of-way.
The top of the Arc is open space. Standing up there watching the traffic is amusing. I once saw two buses, side-by-side, exit the roundabout, while the motorbike sandwiched between them attempted to continue further around the circle. Luckily, everything happened at fairly slow speeds, so collision was avoided.
> What makes it seem crazy is cars entering have right of way.
I saw that on either Top Gear or The Grand Tour and was convinced they were just making fun of the French. It's really odd to not have changed it when everyone else learned that lesson already.
Not hitting anyone is a skill some people seem to lack. Sometimes the rules say one thing, but you have to do another, mostly give way even if you're not supposed to yield.
A town I grew up in went absolutely crazy with roundabouts over the last 10 years or so. They built them everywhere. Most are pretty straightforward and they simplify traffic a ton but there were some bad design choices made.
There are accidents here almost every week and when an out of towner comes off the interstate to get some gas at Sam's Club (where I used to work) I had to try and explain to them how to get back onto the interstate...
I might try to clone this project idea, it was fun to play!
I don't think Australia has many true four way stops in cities and towns. Usually there's a give way sign on two of the directions, or lights, or a roundabout.
Unmarked intersections do exist, mostly on bush tracks and backroads, but I don't think I've ever seen the four stop sign arrangement here in Vic. Apparently it's slightly more common in NSW.
I have a conspiracy theory that these unnecessary projects to replace intersections with roundabouts in small/midsize towns are driven by kickbacks from the contractor to the city council.
Wow, thanks for sharing that maps. Looking at the satellite is wild. It's all roads and parking lots, barely any buildings. Even if you did fix the massive road infrastructure, what would they do, give the land back to businesses nearby?
- there should be a gas pedal and a brake, rather than the car going forward at a constant speed unless I hit the brakes.
- the car should go straight, unless I turn. if I don't do anything near the exit of a roundabout, sometimes the "default" behavior is to exit the roundabout, sometimes it's to turn and continue within the roundabout.
frustration with the last point was enough for me to give up trying to play it. I'm sure the LLM that vibe-coded this thinks the controls make perfect sense, though.
in general:
is this trying to make a point of some kind about the design of the interchange? the "Inspired by online discussions of the Kirkland roundabouts" text sort of hints at that but it's unclear how.
is the point that it's overly complicated? or is the point that it's actually not that complicated, in response to people criticizing it? I can imagine it going either way...but the poor controls mean that it's not really effective at making either point.
different roundabout / intersection types would make this much more interesting. I've driven through the "diverging diamond" interchange of I-5 in Lacey [0] before, and it was a bit confusing the first time but now doesn't seem any more complicated than any other busy highway intersection. or, add a before & after comparing the old Kirkland interchange design to the new roundabout.
I rather agree. The layout actually looks pretty straightforward, but the controls make it annoyingly hard.
Though, in real life, people often don't look at the road markings - possibly even more true in America, where people are perhaps less familiar with the roundabout concept - and general directions of traffic flow is an issue. Perhaps driving this particular roundabout in real life might indeed turn out to be as annoying as this game is to play.
(There are a couple of straightforward-looking ones near me that, in practice, are almost impossible during busy times in specific directions. Even if your car is powerful enough to zip onto the roundabout in a tiny gap without there being a crash, now you have to not crash while making it turn...)
There's one installed a few years ago north of it where 132nd goes under the freeway. It used to have 2 lights to get through under the freeway. Now there are 2 roundabouts. I never have to wait anymore. It's a big win.
Yes, because nobody goes that way anymore - It's too much of a time sink, significantly because you never end up where you want to go. Instead the real crossing points got even more crowded, or were until this abomination got installed.
Thankfully, I literally sold my house because of it, and my timing was good and I got out before prices dropped.
Another reason it's way better is because of all the time spent waiting at a red light when there's zero cross traffic. The traffic lights all have cameras now, you'd think the traffic engineers would hook it up to AI and optimize the lights. But no.
A taste of what that would be like is when all the power goes out, including the power to the traffic lights. Traffic moves faster! Because drivers cooperate. Traffic also moves faster when a cop is directing traffic.
The lights in my small Pennsylvania town just got cameras and do seem to be using ML to recognize traffic build-up and optimize dynamically for traffic flow. Pretty cool stuff.
I think the real reason they were installed was because of a new state law that goes into effect this July where you'll be fined if you're spotted holding a smartphone by a traffic cam. Still, the faster light changes are quite welcome.
…a new state law that goes into effect this July where you'll be fined if you're spotted holding a smartphone by a traffic cam.
Wait, what?! I’m at a loss as to the behavior they’re trying to curb with such a law.
EDIT: OIC, it’s not “using a phone near a traffic cam”, it’s “using a phone while driving (even at a stop light) and a traffic cam captures you doing it”.
That is a very basic roundabout. I was expecting by "magic" that you would have to go round some part in reverse (clockwise for US left-hand driving). This is nothing compared to the original "magic" roundabout of Swindon, Wiltshire.
This interchange might have been better off using a diverging diamond interchange layout [1]. While not a roundabout they are "magic" and we should use them more often.
They just look confusing because at some point you are effectively driving on the wrong side of the road, but are extremely efficient. My daily commute includes one that cuts a few minutes off what it once took to negotiate the previous traditional interchange.
> This is nothing compared to the original "magic" roundabout of Swindon, Wiltshire.
There should be a law (I'd suggest Dougal's Law) describing how any discussion of road design will inevitably lead to a mention of the Magic Roundabout :D
We have one of those diverging diamond ones in the general area too (at the I90/SR18 junction). It's interesting to drive through until you get used to it.
I hit that one a few weeks ago, having apparently not been that way in quite a while. I’m down with some roundabouts, but that intersection definitely kept me in my toes.
it does note that it's satire. a lot of drivers in America have reflexive dislike of roundabouts.
this one probably is not good for a DDI because it is also supposed to be a bus interchange for a BRT project, and the buses will stop at the roundabout level.
The majority of drivers don't know the signaling rules for roundabouts so the end result is no one uses signals on them for anything and this you never know what people are going to do next when they are in one.
All in all they end up being rather unpleasant to use through no fault of their own.
The linked ones, also called "magic roundabouts", are roundabout rings made out of roundabouts. In particular, you can take them clockwise or anticlockwise - it is a ring of roads connected by mini roundabouts. Even just the road sign gives you a headache!
Having been exposed to the idea for over a decade, I still don't know instinctively how to navigate them.
They're really simple - arguably the problem is people try to treat them as a single complex unit rather than just "5 junctions in a row". Trying to think of them as a whole is rather pointless and self defeating, as there's no real advantage to doing so.
Most people have no problems with the idea of a road network loop - such as around a block - but that's exactly the same thing from a driving point of view.
I'm all for hating bad infrastructure, but this roundabout seems pretty straightforward? Maybe it's different when you're actually driving on it, but from a topdown view it's clear it's a central roundabout with some extra sidelanes to avoid the roundabout if you're immediately turning right.
I’m typing this just down the road from this Kirkland roundabout. It is fine. I’m used to roundabouts from my old country tho. I do fear someone else will just hit me down there cause I don’t trust people around here on roundabouts.
A breath of fresh air is how much faster getting off I-405 is now. I used to wait a lot on the traffic lights that were there before, and now it is like a mini slow rollercoaster.
Talking to my American colleagues, they're often perplexed by roundabouts and don't really understand how they fundamentally work. They're also incredibly stubborn when it comes to convincing them that it helps with traffic flow immensely versus a 4 way stop sign.
When you’re walking the stop sign stops traffic for you so it’s a lot nicer. I’ve found that even with a marked crosswalk people ignore you if they’re not forced to stop.
I guess jaywalking stuff makes this harder? Because in the UK for example, roundabouts will often be surrounded by marked areas for pedestrians to cross, but they are not proper crossings. You don't have to wait or expect traffic to stop for you, you just walk across when it's clear.
Crossing the road without a crossing or light or whatever explicitly telling you that you can do it.
> In the UK, roundabouts are marked with areas for pedestrians to cross but they are not crossings? What are they, then?
They are indented areas where the road (and often the centre barrier just before the roundabout) is marked for pedestrians but traffic is not obligated to stop. You cross the road when it is safe
> What do you do if it does not become clear?
If it was such total gridlock you can just cross in between traffic that is not moving?
It's much better when there's no traffic. When there's traffic, it often doesn't stop for you when it exits the roundabout (even if it technically should) because everyone is busy going around the circle as fast as possible (and driving in a circle means they might not have been looking at where you crossed). Sometimes they move the pedestrian crossings way back to give people more of a chance to stop, but that still requires drivers to stop when they don't feel forced to.
And as a pedestrian, drivers going around a circle aren't necessarily going to see you until they're already exiting, even if the city didn't put something large in the center that entirely blocks their vision. Plus, you lose the ability to know which way a car is likely to go until it's already too late.
When I lived in Nashville, I spent a lot of time near a roundabout, and even after they redid it to be a bit better I still had to avoid it for my own safety. The light-controlled intersection next to it was much less of a problem.
The rule in Australia for roundabouts is that you give way to anyone already on a roundabout.
From an advanced driving course I got to do years ago (for free), I learnt that the pedestrian island counts as part of the roundabout, so a pedestrian crossing or on the island should be given way to finish crossing when entering the roundabout [1].
Doesn't always happen in reality.
There is also this idea in Australia that you always give right of way to cars entering on your right (left for US) which is not an actual rule; as in if you are waiting at the line you count as being on the roundabout.
Unfortunately, you will often see cars on the major road blast through a small roundabout with no regard to anyone waiting to enter from the lesser road, making entering the roundabout from that side a stop rather than an equal give way.
I almost like them, but my commute long ago involved one that revealed a frustrating pathological case. Constant traffic flow in one direction can make an entrance entirely unusable. It makes the average trip more efficient, but the worst case becomes dramatically worse.
>Constant traffic flow in one direction can make an entrance entirely unusable.
Seems like a poorly designed roundabout then. You should just pull into the roundabout, right after the car already in the roundabout passes by. Something is wrong if one direction of traffic can block the flow from other directions.
It's more a poor place for a roundabout. It was a very busy intersection in one direction, where the switch to roundabouts meant there was no longer a break in traffic. What it needed was a light with a sensor to let the very sporadic side traffic through (technically, a roundabout can have this, but the 3/4-way intersection that's always green except when someone needs it to not be is better), what we got was an endless stream of cars blocking the way for a lot of the day. If you pull in after the car already in the roundabout passes by, you get hit by the next one.
I'm American with a roundabout very close to my house. The inner radius is 10 meters with an island in the middle, and single lanes in all directions. I have witnessed it successfully navigated at well over 100 kph.
Also, it's not a speed thing. I've seen this at another roundabout near my house. There's a school dropoff near it, so in the morning traffic backs up through the roundabout onto one of the entrances. The rules are that traffic in the roundabout has the right of way, so nobody lets anyone from one of the side streets in.
I guess I'm not a traffic engineer. And there are of course humans-doing-crazy things. But the roundabouts in my neck of the woods are a lot more reasonable. Sure, there is the occasional timid driver who can temporarily gum up the work. I can't say I know if it is the drivers or the roundabout design, or what that would make roundabouts useful in some areas and less useful in others. I bet it would make a good YouTube video if someone were to critique one of the unsuccessful roundabouts (or at least I'd give it a click). And if someone is looking for YouTube video opportunities, it would also be interesting to see how Tesla FSD handles this. Line up 10 or 15 going in one direction, and another 1 or 2 in the perpendicular direction.
The figure-8 central design makes this roundabout not a real roundabout. The challenge is that the entry and exit points are at the tightest part of the curve, making ingress and egress kind of weird. It looks like they did it because of space constraints on the bridge. What I find weird is the tightness of the on/off ramp, which share a very small part of the central lanes. In a traditional circle, they are spaced more apart, making exiting and entering smoother.
If it were a regular 2-lane traffic circle, it wouldn't be too difficult to navigate.
Personally, I find multiple-lane traffic circles (4+) to be more difficult to navigate, mostly when some people in the center lanes pull a fast right turn across all lanes of traffic. Otherwise, much better than traffic lights at keeping traffic moving or first-come, first-served stop intersections when people don't really stop or sit there waving you through.
I don't think roundabouts are complex, treat them like a giveway/yield and they are brilliant.
The biggest issue is they are an infrequently used traffic control device in the US. So infrequent, I don't think they even appear in the WA drivers handbook which is kind of shocking.
As a by product, you see the craziest driver behaviour in Seattle on them:
1) No one uses their indicators/turn signals as they approach. This is a major issue because it makes the roundabout incredibly ineffective, as every driver needs to treat it effectively like a 4-way stop because you don't know the intentions of the cars around you.
2) Drivers will enter the roundabout, then stop at another entryway if a car approaches. This makes no sense, as the approaching car would need to yield or stop, so it slows the traffic down again.
3) Drivers will wait at an entrance until all other cars are clear of the roundabout before entering. Again, makes no sense - you wouldn't do that on a cross-road if two cars were both indicating right etc.
Definitely need more driver education on the humble roundabout!
In Europe most people don't indicate when approaching the roundabout; only if you're taking the first exit.
Roundabout is basically a straight road that loops itself, so there's no need for blinkers when you're on. You indicate when you want to leave, and that's how cars approaching from your exit know it's safe to get on.
Besides that I'm not surprised Americans don't know how to use them; while nowhere else in the world you'll find a 4-way stop...
The most efficient use of a roundabout is to indicate when you're turning across the roundabout (turning left if you live in the US) and when you exit (whether that is the first, second or fifth exit). This way all traffic entering the roundabout on an entrance ahead of you knows your vehicles intentions & it allows them to treat the entrance like a yield/giveway instead of a stop. #keepthetrafficflowing ;-)
> No one uses their indicators/turn signals as they approach. This is a major issue because it makes the roundabout incredibly ineffective, as every driver needs to treat it effectively like a 4-way stop because you don't know the intentions of the cars around you.
As another commenter mentioned, roundabouts work just fine even if nobody indicates anything (which they usually don't where I live).
I'm used to roundabouts but I find the game difficult. Even if you made a basic roundabout I'd still crash a lot.
1) The car wants to go too fast on it's own.
2) The third person perspective is nothing like real driving where you simply yield to traffic on the left (or give way to the left for us down-under folks).
If it's meant to be an argument against roundabouts then it's a straw man.
I love roundabouts. I have no clue what on Earth compelled them to design the 85th st interchange this way, but they took maybe the most dangerous intersection I have ever seen and made it maybe twice as dangerous.
I live a couple of blocks away from this Kirkland roundabout and I drive through it very often -- almost every time I go anywhere. Overall, I like it. My average traversal through the roundabout, for just about any source/destination, seems a bit faster than the pre-roundabout infrastructure and much faster than the temporary so-many-stoplights configuration they had for the past year or two.
I used the roundabout the game is modeled after the other day. This is at the freeway exit used to get to the Costco AND downtown in Kirkland. I've seen pileups here for no reason. It's insane.
To be fair, I'm not sure there's a good solution. The real problem is the volume of traffic and that it dumps onto two lane roads at the edges of this roundabout. To really fix things you need to give people other exits to use.
I'm a huge roundabout fan, but this does indeed look nasty. Seattle area driving in general is pretty bad. There's an exit on the 5 in downtown Seattle that's on the far left lane (Seneca street I believe) that feels like putting your life on the line every time you need to take it.
The adjoining roads have a large speed differential. The runoff areas around this project do not appear as if designed with this in mind. I predict a few horrible accidents and some hamfisted redesigns.
The local news has a ground level view of this project:
I drove on this for the first time yesterday, once from 405 S to 85th W, then back on 85th E and 405 N. Super easy, the lanes are fairly nicely signed and there is ample signage. No issues at all.
I'm assuming these are AI-generated songs... but they're so funny. I think "hilarious songs" is an underrated use of AI. It used to require a lot to make a catchy tune, so we were limited to the output of the few comedians who were talented musicians. But the ability to have a silly theme song of this quality, for a joke game, friend group in-joke, or a company retreat... this is something I like about AI!
The problem is that at intersections the normative behavior of American drivers is to queue and wait for your turn. Roundabouts assume a different behavior based on jumping the line.
Thus there is a lot of unpredictability regarding other drivers due to generations of driving patterns developed in diverse regional driving cultures...many of which are distinctly not-urban.
In addition, this roundabout is part of an Interstate Highway interchange. The US Interstate system is at a scale that doesn't occur elsewhere. It is transcontinental.
> The problem is that at intersections the normative behavior of American drivers is to queue and wait for your turn. Roundabouts assume a different behavior based on jumping the line.
I don't think it's that different from turning right on red, or left without an arrow, or even merging on to the highway from an onramp (maybe that's the most similar, traffic in the others aren't flowing the same direction as you).
I live near plenty of them, they still require to you merge with traffic after. You do "queue and wait for your turn", but immediately after you have to find a gap to insert yourself into before you run out of road.
There is a roundabout near me that gets quite low traffic volume. I probably only have to even slow below 20mph about 10% of the time. The bigger risk is that the car in front of me is going to come to a complete stop at the yield sign despite the fact that you can see any potential conflicts at least 100 feet before the roundabout.
American drivers don’t know that a yield doesn’t require a stop and can’t think more than one or two seconds ahead of any possible conflict in traffic.
The US has been building roundabouts for about 30 years.
It has a lot of intersections.
Reconfiguring intersections is expensive and disruptive. Stop signs and traffic lights take less space and are often the simplest thing that might work.
From what I understand roundabouts make accident rate go up, it is the severity of accidents that goes down which probably still a positive.
That said I have yet to drive through a roundabout that I think improved an intersection in any meaningful way. Half of them work as intended but I find them less pleasant to drive through, the other half are just horribly designed and often have semitrucks go through them when they aren't really large enough for that.
>From what I understand roundabouts make accident rate go up,
"Studies of intersections in the United States converted from traffic signals or stop signs to roundabouts have found reductions in injury crashes of 72%-80% and reductions in all crashes of 35%-47%"
> From what I understand roundabouts make accident rate go up, it is the severity of accidents that goes down which probably still a positive.
That's the argument I keep hearing, but I'm not sure I buy it. Fewer people might be injured physically but even low speed accidents can cost thousands in repairs if not total your car, so going from a few people being hurt a year to multiple people losing their cars or being forced to pay out thousands every few weeks doesn't seem like a win to me.
I was surprised that the U.S. probably only has around 11,000 roundabouts. I thought it would be higher. If they were as popular as they are in my local area, there would be over 70,000 in the U.S.
This game hijacks my f5 key and alt key. I'm using brave browser on ubuntu. Can't navigate back or refresh while the game is playing. I rarely see this, maybe never have. I wonder how that is achieved?
I love this roundabout, we live down the street from it. People around here drive comically bad, mostly from what i suspect is simple inexperience (many new drivers), with a surprising side of entitlement (super rich area). Together, its become my favorite experience to see all the ways people fail to navigate this wild "roundabout".
And yet it still mostly works, and is loads faster than the former lights that were there before, so i suspect it will be a success in most eyes once everyone adapts.
For additional fun, check out the sticker price on this intersection overhaul (which includes much more than the round about).
It's been not so great for me so far, but I think that's because the street I often take before getting into the roundabout is still reduced to one lane each way due to construction; once it's back to two lanes each way, I think it'll be fine.
In my town of Shrewsbury PA we have a diverging diamond traffic pattern(it's sorta like a figure 8). I have no issue with it tho I have seen a car accident or two there. Roundabouts are simple and so is the diverging diamond.
Four way stops that require all traffic to stop for no particular reason are always a bad idea. They're a waste of time and resources.
Two way stops are OFTEN a bad idea, because they require two directions of travel to stop for _sometimes_ no particular reason. (And then they often cannot go without an extensive wait).
Roundabouts are almost always a good idea, assuming there is sufficient traffic. They keep traffic flowing faster, more predictably, and with fewer accidents.
No, they just interrupt the flow of traffic by slowing it down. The classic pattern of side roads with less traffic yielding to incoming traffic on the main road carrying more traffic is the correct road layout that minimizes frustration and confusion. Roundabouts are the favorite tool of left-leaning, anti-car, vanilla soy latte-sipping urban planners.
Btw your 'classic pattern' of highly unbalanced traffic flows is specifically called out as a non-ideal candidate for a roundabout, maybe the urban planners get cow milk in their lattes after all.
Hey all, I'm the author of this game. I didn't expect to see it on HN! I wrote it to add some fun to all the conversations happening in the local forums about this roundabout. They've been heated at times. And, yes, this roundabout is right next to the Kirkland Costco.
I definitely agree with all the critiques of the gameplay - and I have about 100 more. I cut it down to the bare essentials to get it done while it's still relevant in the community. I wouldn't even call it an MVP. I probably won't update this unless there is some greater need. Though using Godot with Claude Code was a blast so I'm motivated to do new stuff there. I've been building solutions on Unity/DX/Unreal for over a decade - Godot was such a breath of fresh air!
Do this one! https://maps.app.goo.gl/wmwjQctXpRtXAdKS7
The playlist is hilarious and really helps nail the feeling of driving around in circles! Love it!
My "solution" was to treat every roundabout like a stop sign.
This would work, except that it exposed flaws in the controls/ etc and also sometimes the other cars would not yield. But not my fault! :)
As someone who grew up about 400 feet from that interchange, this is such a weird thing to see.
Just adding a pause in the game would be huge! I'd like to pause and come back to it while waiting for a prompt to finish!
For bonus points, tackle Tumwater next!
https://www.google.com/maps/@46.9995932,-122.9095898,279m/da...
This thing is a nightmare of newly constructed, but with poor signage, rapid lane changes required at times, and "wait, which roundabout?"
I raise you The Magic Roundabout https://maps.app.goo.gl/1Mj8tSvKNBnQMu8V7
Too easy. In the UK there are far more torturous roundabouts, for example, Five Ways in Birmingham, notable because you have to inch forward up a hill, always in traffic, typically with a manual gearbox, to finally get to the roundabout where the three lanes of traffic seems to already be doing 50 mph, meaning that you have to channel your drag racing skills to just get on there, without slipping backwards, damaging the clutch or coming a cropper.
London has some specials too, including the traffic around Hyde Park Corner, which is like a roundabout in vacuum form. Should so much as a square foot of tarmac become vacant then it will magically suck in four taxis, two double decker buses and a dozen UberEats delivery guys, making any progress tough.
Chiswick roundabout, where the M4 motorway, gateway to the West, begins is also not for those lacking testicular fortitude, my mum got stuck going round and round that one, we weren't quite dizzy by the time we got off, but it was getting that way.
All is nothing though. You have got to do France, Arc de Triomphe. Cobblestones, many, many lanes, every car with dents in it and priority given to those entering the roundabout rather than those on it already. No American in an American vehicle would be able to make it through that one!
Tumwater. What you get when you put the wrong tablet in your denture bath.
and really it’s tumwata anyway. waterfall
I assume a 'tumwata is a bottom-bottom-water; im underwata wit de missile; a submarine.
What's particularly crazy about this interchange is that there is going to be a second, elevated peanut roundabout that's rotated 90 degrees, for buses to use: https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg...
I think the "peanut" shape of the transit roundabout is not final. They're going to straighten the sides to make it more of a race-track shape. Having straight sides allows the busses to align themselves better with the curbs for passenger access. That rendering is a bit nonsense, its outright missing the 85th/114th intersection
That's a fantastic rendering. I hadn't seen it.
The buses will at least have an easier time, they should be all trained for how to navigate it if it's on their route, and there's much less traffic on the bus-only part.
So many comments talking about how straightforward some roundabouts are, but I think you guys are confused. Roundabouts are never straightforward, you're thinking of a normal road.
Is this a play on the word "straight[-]forward"?
you really cut through this one
No, its a play on the word roundabouts
This is a bit of a traffic circle way of explaining the joke.
So ... in a roundabout way, it's straight—forward, and in a straightforward way, it's roundabout?
I've been driving roundabouts for decades, and think they're great - they really help with traffic flow. I've never found them confusing.
I had to drive this specific Kirkland roundabout the other day, and ended up missing my offramp and going in completely the wrong direction. It's the most confusing roundabout I've ever seen.
People (including me) are getting flat tires. There's an obstruction jutting out into the road in going west on 85th to South on 405. It's a few inches high, very sharp, and right into the pathway. We've filed a complaint but it's still there.
I live moments away from this roundabout. It's confusing. Single-lane roundabouts are really straightforward. You're either clear to enter, or you're not.
Adding lanes makes it far more confusing. I consider myself, you know, pretty smart. Not stupid, at least.
But I almost sideswiped someone in this roundabout the other day. Years of driving experience gave me an intuition that the middle lane would not cross over the outer lane. E.x. a car in the inner lane would not pass through the outer lane (except at the very end). So when I saw an oncoming car in the inner lane I thoguht I was safe to enter the outer lane. Not so. The inner lane car was actually lane-changing to the outer lane (at the exact point I was about to enter the roundabout) in order to exit.
I too live nearby
The lanes are quite narrow, and the outer curb is deceptive - there’s a 1” edge with a curved curb behind it making it look wider than it actually is. Scraping along that edge will push cars into the center of the road. There will be a lot of minor accidents here due to the road design.
One other second order effect - people are getting used to roundabouts here now, but nearby are ‘traffic circles’ that are roundabouts with stop signs on some entrances. People are now ignoring those stop signs (because it’s a roundabout!). I almost hit 3 cars in 2 intersections as people ignored their stop sign.
> People are now ignoring those stop signs (because it’s a roundabout!)
Do you mean they treat it as if they have right-of-way when entering? Because that's also unusual (but not unheard of) in roundabouts.
traffic circles (w/ stop signs) are an abomination and should be removed
They exist so people cannot run through the stop sign. Their only connection to a round about is the shape.
It's more complex than that. I live in Seattle near a street that has these traffic circles. The design is:
* There is a round obstruction in the middle of the intersection like a roundabout.
* The street going north-south through the intersection does not have a stop sign.
* The street going east-west has stop signs on both sides.
* But the north-south street which doesn't have to stop also has speed humps on it to slow drivers down.
On its face, this seems like a totally bananas design. The street that should be efficient by not having to stop has traffic calming speed humps on it anyway, negating the efficiency. The cross streets get none of the efficiency of a roundabout because they have to stop anyway. And the combination of roundabout and stop signs is very confusing to drivers.
It makes no sense... if you assume the intersection is designed entirely for cars.
But it isn't, it's a "neighborhood greenway"[1]. The north-south street is designed to improve bicycle traffic. The speed humps don't slow cyclists down. The roundabout middle and stop signs on the cross streets make it safer for cyclists to cruise through the intersection without stopping.
If you ever bike commute, you quickly learn how lethal a lot of stopping and going is for cycling. The effort and efficiency really only make sense if you can go a fairly steady speed for much of your commute. Accelerating a bike is a lot of work.
Once you factor in bikes, the design of these intersections makes more sense. At least in theory. In practice, though people are consistently confused by "roundabout + stop signs" and I see drivers blow through those stop signs more than I've ever seen any other traffic violation by a large margin. Because of that, cyclists and drivers going north-south still have to be paranoid going into the intersection. Even though they have the right of way, there's about a 25% chance the other driver won't stop anyway.
It was a good idea, and maybe the execution will work out once people get more educated. But right now it's a mess. I walk along that street often and I spend a lot of time gesticulating wildly at drivers when they blow through those stop signs.
[1]: https://www.seattle.gov/transportation/projects-and-programs...
I live by a bunch of these, but worse IMO is the "four way intersection with no signs or circle or anything" where you just kind of hope no one comes fast and hits you (I imagine on a bike where you wouldn't stop if there was a sign this is even more dangerous). Seattle is weird. Traffic circle with stop signs is fine by me, they don't really function well as roundabouts for most cars, anyways, some of them are too cramped to actually go all the way around smoothly.
> worse IMO is the "four way intersection with no signs or circle or anything" where you just kind of hope no one comes fast and hits you
Agreed, totally. That's what this street used to be before they converted it. I hated driving it because I had to crawl through each intersection because you never knew if someone was going to just blow through it or not. It was even slower than a four-way stop.
Hah! Yeah I also live on a neighborhood greenway street with a traffic circle in Seattle and the odd stop sign layout. It confused me for a year until I learned about the greenway program.
Seattle has plenty of traffic circles just laying around that predate the greenway program though.
I almost never see Seattle drivers blow through stop signs though, maybe people in my neighborhood are just more chill? :D
Mine was converted to a greenway pretty recently, so it may be that drivers just have old habits from before when those intersections didn't have any stop signs.
Good to hear they are adding more green ways! I love the program and I feel they are safer (and a lot more affordable) than "bike lanes" on arterial streets that are often just a painted line.
I do wish Google maps was aware of them though.
Seems reasonable. Of course there are really good (true) roundabout designs that are great of cycling (and walking), but without understanding the space it's hard to know if they would fit / work well.
What they're talking about is basically a small concrete circle (sometimes it's not a circle, but a round-ish shape vaguely near the center) plopped down in a standard residential intersection (sometimes with a lot of stuff in it that blocks the view in case you were worried about knowing if someone is crossing the street on the other side). Better designs likely wouldn't fit without raising the cost a huge amount.
Seattle ones are works of art with trees and native flowers and sometimes art pieces.
They are more than just a small concrete circle. :D
Plenty of the ones near me are just a concrete blob, unless a little pole with reflectors counts as an art piece.
They sometimes have to keep access for fire trucks
> Single-lane roundabouts are really straightforward
Like the Arc de Triomphe roundabout? :)
If it had lane marking there would apparently be 10 tracks around the circle.
What makes it seem crazy is cars entering have right of way.
The reason it works seems to be French attitude. Cars entering do their thing, and cars already going around do their thing (and just have to avoid anyone on their right).
> What makes it seem crazy is cars entering have right of way.
The thing that’s bananas is that this is a City of Paris rule. In the rest of France, traffic entering a roundabout must yield. Not inside Paris. Better make sure you know this!
And even more crazy, the Periphérique, the controlled-access ring road around Paris which tends to move at 40-50mph, is a city street and so traffic entering that highway-like “street” also has right-of-way.
The top of the Arc is open space. Standing up there watching the traffic is amusing. I once saw two buses, side-by-side, exit the roundabout, while the motorbike sandwiched between them attempted to continue further around the circle. Luckily, everything happened at fairly slow speeds, so collision was avoided.
> What makes it seem crazy is cars entering have right of way.
I saw that on either Top Gear or The Grand Tour and was convinced they were just making fun of the French. It's really odd to not have changed it when everyone else learned that lesson already.
Not hitting anyone is a skill some people seem to lack. Sometimes the rules say one thing, but you have to do another, mostly give way even if you're not supposed to yield.
> Years of driving experience gave me an intuition that [another motorist wouldn't be a complete blithering idiot]
I regret to inform you...
Yeah, it's honestly an astounding creation. I enjoy driving it, if only for the bit.
There appear to be many such peanut roundabouts around the world, many of them in the US[1]
[1]https://panethos.wordpress.com/2024/06/14/working-list-peanu...
I did not understand why all the commentary in the game was about giant peanuts until I read your comment. Thank you!
A town I grew up in went absolutely crazy with roundabouts over the last 10 years or so. They built them everywhere. Most are pretty straightforward and they simplify traffic a ton but there were some bad design choices made.
Take this similarly confusing double-roundabout for example https://maps.app.goo.gl/VTSrSWsBGnsYyzKU6
There are accidents here almost every week and when an out of towner comes off the interstate to get some gas at Sam's Club (where I used to work) I had to try and explain to them how to get back onto the interstate...
I might try to clone this project idea, it was fun to play!
They also proposed a peanut style roundabout with a *train track going through it* that thankfully has not been built yet https://media.conwayarkansas.gov/media/documents/project/85/...
I grew up in a town in Australia nicknamed “the city of roundabouts.”
Four way stops simply don’t exist.
When well designed, roundabouts are excellent for traffic flow and reducing accidents and severity of accidents.
If I was king for a day I’d replace all four way stops with them.
I don't think Australia has many true four way stops in cities and towns. Usually there's a give way sign on two of the directions, or lights, or a roundabout.
Unmarked intersections do exist, mostly on bush tracks and backroads, but I don't think I've ever seen the four stop sign arrangement here in Vic. Apparently it's slightly more common in NSW.
As far as I’m aware they are nonexistent. I’ve driven a lot of the country and never seen one.
Grew up in windy Warrnambool. Guessing you are from my home town or Albury, WA.
obligatory callout to Carmel, Indiana who have made great strides in implementing roundabouts as much as possible
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmel,_Indiana
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cc12tk--qU
I have a conspiracy theory that these unnecessary projects to replace intersections with roundabouts in small/midsize towns are driven by kickbacks from the contractor to the city council.
Wow, thanks for sharing that maps. Looking at the satellite is wild. It's all roads and parking lots, barely any buildings. Even if you did fix the massive road infrastructure, what would they do, give the land back to businesses nearby?
about the gameplay specifically:
- have a mute button for the background music.
- there should be a gas pedal and a brake, rather than the car going forward at a constant speed unless I hit the brakes.
- the car should go straight, unless I turn. if I don't do anything near the exit of a roundabout, sometimes the "default" behavior is to exit the roundabout, sometimes it's to turn and continue within the roundabout.
frustration with the last point was enough for me to give up trying to play it. I'm sure the LLM that vibe-coded this thinks the controls make perfect sense, though.
in general:
is this trying to make a point of some kind about the design of the interchange? the "Inspired by online discussions of the Kirkland roundabouts" text sort of hints at that but it's unclear how.
is the point that it's overly complicated? or is the point that it's actually not that complicated, in response to people criticizing it? I can imagine it going either way...but the poor controls mean that it's not really effective at making either point.
different roundabout / intersection types would make this much more interesting. I've driven through the "diverging diamond" interchange of I-5 in Lacey [0] before, and it was a bit confusing the first time but now doesn't seem any more complicated than any other busy highway intersection. or, add a before & after comparing the old Kirkland interchange design to the new roundabout.
0: https://wsdot.wa.gov/travel/traffic-safety-methods/diverging...
I rather agree. The layout actually looks pretty straightforward, but the controls make it annoyingly hard.
Though, in real life, people often don't look at the road markings - possibly even more true in America, where people are perhaps less familiar with the roundabout concept - and general directions of traffic flow is an issue. Perhaps driving this particular roundabout in real life might indeed turn out to be as annoying as this game is to play.
(There are a couple of straightforward-looking ones near me that, in practice, are almost impossible during busy times in specific directions. Even if your car is powerful enough to zip onto the roundabout in a tiny gap without there being a crash, now you have to not crash while making it turn...)
The best part about Kirkland Roundabouts is that they come in a handy family-size 24 pack.
I'll let myself out.
The original Costco HQ building overlooks this new intersection, so this is almost a relevant comment
Not quite. The old corporate HQ was located at 10809 120th ave NE, which is up at exit 21 and currently being redeveloped into a townhome complex: https://www.google.com/maps/place/10809+120th+Ave+NE,+Kirkla...
There's one installed a few years ago north of it where 132nd goes under the freeway. It used to have 2 lights to get through under the freeway. Now there are 2 roundabouts. I never have to wait anymore. It's a big win.
Agree, really thankful for those
Yes, because nobody goes that way anymore - It's too much of a time sink, significantly because you never end up where you want to go. Instead the real crossing points got even more crowded, or were until this abomination got installed.
Thankfully, I literally sold my house because of it, and my timing was good and I got out before prices dropped.
Another reason it's way better is because of all the time spent waiting at a red light when there's zero cross traffic. The traffic lights all have cameras now, you'd think the traffic engineers would hook it up to AI and optimize the lights. But no.
A taste of what that would be like is when all the power goes out, including the power to the traffic lights. Traffic moves faster! Because drivers cooperate. Traffic also moves faster when a cop is directing traffic.
The lights in my small Pennsylvania town just got cameras and do seem to be using ML to recognize traffic build-up and optimize dynamically for traffic flow. Pretty cool stuff.
I think the real reason they were installed was because of a new state law that goes into effect this July where you'll be fined if you're spotted holding a smartphone by a traffic cam. Still, the faster light changes are quite welcome.
…a new state law that goes into effect this July where you'll be fined if you're spotted holding a smartphone by a traffic cam.
Wait, what?! I’m at a loss as to the behavior they’re trying to curb with such a law.
EDIT: OIC, it’s not “using a phone near a traffic cam”, it’s “using a phone while driving (even at a stop light) and a traffic cam captures you doing it”.
Somewhat relevant: https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/new-pa-ban-on-cel...
That is a very basic roundabout. I was expecting by "magic" that you would have to go round some part in reverse (clockwise for US left-hand driving). This is nothing compared to the original "magic" roundabout of Swindon, Wiltshire.
This interchange might have been better off using a diverging diamond interchange layout [1]. While not a roundabout they are "magic" and we should use them more often.
They just look confusing because at some point you are effectively driving on the wrong side of the road, but are extremely efficient. My daily commute includes one that cuts a few minutes off what it once took to negotiate the previous traditional interchange.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diverging_diamond_interchange
> This is nothing compared to the original "magic" roundabout of Swindon, Wiltshire.
There should be a law (I'd suggest Dougal's Law) describing how any discussion of road design will inevitably lead to a mention of the Magic Roundabout :D
We have one of those diverging diamond ones in the general area too (at the I90/SR18 junction). It's interesting to drive through until you get used to it.
I hit that one a few weeks ago, having apparently not been that way in quite a while. I’m down with some roundabouts, but that intersection definitely kept me in my toes.
it does note that it's satire. a lot of drivers in America have reflexive dislike of roundabouts.
this one probably is not good for a DDI because it is also supposed to be a bus interchange for a BRT project, and the buses will stop at the roundabout level.
The majority of drivers don't know the signaling rules for roundabouts so the end result is no one uses signals on them for anything and this you never know what people are going to do next when they are in one.
All in all they end up being rather unpleasant to use through no fault of their own.
Probably an instance where busses need their own level/ramps.
[dead]
I assumed it would be like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Roundabout_(Swindon) or this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Roundabout_(Hemel_Hempst... . Instead, topologically, it is a normal roundabout, just with unusual (negative) curvatures.
The linked ones, also called "magic roundabouts", are roundabout rings made out of roundabouts. In particular, you can take them clockwise or anticlockwise - it is a ring of roads connected by mini roundabouts. Even just the road sign gives you a headache!
Having been exposed to the idea for over a decade, I still don't know instinctively how to navigate them.
They're really simple - arguably the problem is people try to treat them as a single complex unit rather than just "5 junctions in a row". Trying to think of them as a whole is rather pointless and self defeating, as there's no real advantage to doing so.
Most people have no problems with the idea of a road network loop - such as around a block - but that's exactly the same thing from a driving point of view.
I'm all for hating bad infrastructure, but this roundabout seems pretty straightforward? Maybe it's different when you're actually driving on it, but from a topdown view it's clear it's a central roundabout with some extra sidelanes to avoid the roundabout if you're immediately turning right.
I’m typing this just down the road from this Kirkland roundabout. It is fine. I’m used to roundabouts from my old country tho. I do fear someone else will just hit me down there cause I don’t trust people around here on roundabouts.
A breath of fresh air is how much faster getting off I-405 is now. I used to wait a lot on the traffic lights that were there before, and now it is like a mini slow rollercoaster.
Talking to my American colleagues, they're often perplexed by roundabouts and don't really understand how they fundamentally work. They're also incredibly stubborn when it comes to convincing them that it helps with traffic flow immensely versus a 4 way stop sign.
When you’re walking the stop sign stops traffic for you so it’s a lot nicer. I’ve found that even with a marked crosswalk people ignore you if they’re not forced to stop.
I guess jaywalking stuff makes this harder? Because in the UK for example, roundabouts will often be surrounded by marked areas for pedestrians to cross, but they are not proper crossings. You don't have to wait or expect traffic to stop for you, you just walk across when it's clear.
I don't understand your comment.
* Jaywalking makes.. what harder?
* In the UK, roundabouts are marked with areas for pedestrians to cross but they are not crossings? What are they, then?
* You don't have to wait
* But also you can't expect traffic to stop for you
* What do you do if it does not become clear?
> Jaywalking makes.. what harder?
Crossing the road without a crossing or light or whatever explicitly telling you that you can do it.
> In the UK, roundabouts are marked with areas for pedestrians to cross but they are not crossings? What are they, then?
They are indented areas where the road (and often the centre barrier just before the roundabout) is marked for pedestrians but traffic is not obligated to stop. You cross the road when it is safe
> What do you do if it does not become clear?
If it was such total gridlock you can just cross in between traffic that is not moving?
It's much better when there's no traffic. When there's traffic, it often doesn't stop for you when it exits the roundabout (even if it technically should) because everyone is busy going around the circle as fast as possible (and driving in a circle means they might not have been looking at where you crossed). Sometimes they move the pedestrian crossings way back to give people more of a chance to stop, but that still requires drivers to stop when they don't feel forced to.
And as a pedestrian, drivers going around a circle aren't necessarily going to see you until they're already exiting, even if the city didn't put something large in the center that entirely blocks their vision. Plus, you lose the ability to know which way a car is likely to go until it's already too late.
When I lived in Nashville, I spent a lot of time near a roundabout, and even after they redid it to be a bit better I still had to avoid it for my own safety. The light-controlled intersection next to it was much less of a problem.
The rule in Australia for roundabouts is that you give way to anyone already on a roundabout.
From an advanced driving course I got to do years ago (for free), I learnt that the pedestrian island counts as part of the roundabout, so a pedestrian crossing or on the island should be given way to finish crossing when entering the roundabout [1].
Doesn't always happen in reality.
There is also this idea in Australia that you always give right of way to cars entering on your right (left for US) which is not an actual rule; as in if you are waiting at the line you count as being on the roundabout.
Unfortunately, you will often see cars on the major road blast through a small roundabout with no regard to anyone waiting to enter from the lesser road, making entering the roundabout from that side a stop rather than an equal give way.
[1] Edited for clarity
I almost like them, but my commute long ago involved one that revealed a frustrating pathological case. Constant traffic flow in one direction can make an entrance entirely unusable. It makes the average trip more efficient, but the worst case becomes dramatically worse.
>Constant traffic flow in one direction can make an entrance entirely unusable.
Seems like a poorly designed roundabout then. You should just pull into the roundabout, right after the car already in the roundabout passes by. Something is wrong if one direction of traffic can block the flow from other directions.
> You should just pull into the roundabout, right after the car already in the roundabout passes by.
At the risk of pointing out the obvious: the issue is that there's another car right there, when traffic is heavy.
It's more a poor place for a roundabout. It was a very busy intersection in one direction, where the switch to roundabouts meant there was no longer a break in traffic. What it needed was a light with a sensor to let the very sporadic side traffic through (technically, a roundabout can have this, but the 3/4-way intersection that's always green except when someone needs it to not be is better), what we got was an endless stream of cars blocking the way for a lot of the day. If you pull in after the car already in the roundabout passes by, you get hit by the next one.
>If you pull in after the car already in the roundabout passes by, you get hit by the next one.
Yes, that seems like a roundabout design defect. Seems like the radius of the circle is too large, so cars aren't slowing down enough.
How large is too large?
I'm American with a roundabout very close to my house. The inner radius is 10 meters with an island in the middle, and single lanes in all directions. I have witnessed it successfully navigated at well over 100 kph.
Also, it's not a speed thing. I've seen this at another roundabout near my house. There's a school dropoff near it, so in the morning traffic backs up through the roundabout onto one of the entrances. The rules are that traffic in the roundabout has the right of way, so nobody lets anyone from one of the side streets in.
I guess I'm not a traffic engineer. And there are of course humans-doing-crazy things. But the roundabouts in my neck of the woods are a lot more reasonable. Sure, there is the occasional timid driver who can temporarily gum up the work. I can't say I know if it is the drivers or the roundabout design, or what that would make roundabouts useful in some areas and less useful in others. I bet it would make a good YouTube video if someone were to critique one of the unsuccessful roundabouts (or at least I'd give it a click). And if someone is looking for YouTube video opportunities, it would also be interesting to see how Tesla FSD handles this. Line up 10 or 15 going in one direction, and another 1 or 2 in the perpendicular direction.
The figure-8 central design makes this roundabout not a real roundabout. The challenge is that the entry and exit points are at the tightest part of the curve, making ingress and egress kind of weird. It looks like they did it because of space constraints on the bridge. What I find weird is the tightness of the on/off ramp, which share a very small part of the central lanes. In a traditional circle, they are spaced more apart, making exiting and entering smoother.
If it were a regular 2-lane traffic circle, it wouldn't be too difficult to navigate.
Personally, I find multiple-lane traffic circles (4+) to be more difficult to navigate, mostly when some people in the center lanes pull a fast right turn across all lanes of traffic. Otherwise, much better than traffic lights at keeping traffic moving or first-come, first-served stop intersections when people don't really stop or sit there waving you through.
I don't think roundabouts are complex, treat them like a giveway/yield and they are brilliant.
The biggest issue is they are an infrequently used traffic control device in the US. So infrequent, I don't think they even appear in the WA drivers handbook which is kind of shocking.
As a by product, you see the craziest driver behaviour in Seattle on them:
1) No one uses their indicators/turn signals as they approach. This is a major issue because it makes the roundabout incredibly ineffective, as every driver needs to treat it effectively like a 4-way stop because you don't know the intentions of the cars around you. 2) Drivers will enter the roundabout, then stop at another entryway if a car approaches. This makes no sense, as the approaching car would need to yield or stop, so it slows the traffic down again. 3) Drivers will wait at an entrance until all other cars are clear of the roundabout before entering. Again, makes no sense - you wouldn't do that on a cross-road if two cars were both indicating right etc.
Definitely need more driver education on the humble roundabout!
In Europe most people don't indicate when approaching the roundabout; only if you're taking the first exit.
Roundabout is basically a straight road that loops itself, so there's no need for blinkers when you're on. You indicate when you want to leave, and that's how cars approaching from your exit know it's safe to get on.
Besides that I'm not surprised Americans don't know how to use them; while nowhere else in the world you'll find a 4-way stop...
The most efficient use of a roundabout is to indicate when you're turning across the roundabout (turning left if you live in the US) and when you exit (whether that is the first, second or fifth exit). This way all traffic entering the roundabout on an entrance ahead of you knows your vehicles intentions & it allows them to treat the entrance like a yield/giveway instead of a stop. #keepthetrafficflowing ;-)
> No one uses their indicators/turn signals as they approach. This is a major issue because it makes the roundabout incredibly ineffective, as every driver needs to treat it effectively like a 4-way stop because you don't know the intentions of the cars around you.
As another commenter mentioned, roundabouts work just fine even if nobody indicates anything (which they usually don't where I live).
> So infrequent, I don't think they even appear in the WA drivers handbook which is kind of shocking
They are definitely in the handbook. Couple different types, with pictures and diagrams, and written instructions.
Specifically, section 4.15, staring on page 126:
https://dol.wa.gov/driver-licenses-and-permits/driver-traini...
I'm used to roundabouts but I find the game difficult. Even if you made a basic roundabout I'd still crash a lot. 1) The car wants to go too fast on it's own. 2) The third person perspective is nothing like real driving where you simply yield to traffic on the left (or give way to the left for us down-under folks).
If it's meant to be an argument against roundabouts then it's a straw man.
I love roundabouts. I have no clue what on Earth compelled them to design the 85th st interchange this way, but they took maybe the most dangerous intersection I have ever seen and made it maybe twice as dangerous.
I live a couple of blocks away from this Kirkland roundabout and I drive through it very often -- almost every time I go anywhere. Overall, I like it. My average traversal through the roundabout, for just about any source/destination, seems a bit faster than the pre-roundabout infrastructure and much faster than the temporary so-many-stoplights configuration they had for the past year or two.
I used the roundabout the game is modeled after the other day. This is at the freeway exit used to get to the Costco AND downtown in Kirkland. I've seen pileups here for no reason. It's insane.
To be fair, I'm not sure there's a good solution. The real problem is the volume of traffic and that it dumps onto two lane roads at the edges of this roundabout. To really fix things you need to give people other exits to use.
I'm a huge roundabout fan, but this does indeed look nasty. Seattle area driving in general is pretty bad. There's an exit on the 5 in downtown Seattle that's on the far left lane (Seneca street I believe) that feels like putting your life on the line every time you need to take it.
There are multiple left lane exits (and onramps!) on I5 in downtown Seattle. Fun times.
Bonus points if you’ve found all the express lane on ramps.
That's almost as bad as the diverging diamond interchanges https://www.vdot.virginia.gov/media/vdotvirginiagov/about/vd... we've started building in Virginia, where you end up driving on the left for 100 yards as you cross the interstate.
The basic failure mode I would expect:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeFY9u69tkE
The adjoining roads have a large speed differential. The runoff areas around this project do not appear as if designed with this in mind. I predict a few horrible accidents and some hamfisted redesigns.
The local news has a ground level view of this project:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/jlPMB7c0RyQ
Your first link is hilarious. 1:38 features a tow truck wiping out. You'd think he'd seen enough people get in trouble to make him drive better!
I drove on this for the first time yesterday, once from 405 S to 85th W, then back on 85th E and 405 N. Super easy, the lanes are fairly nicely signed and there is ample signage. No issues at all.
Have you done the I-90 <-> SR 18 interchange out by Preston yet?
Background music is awesome
I'm assuming these are AI-generated songs... but they're so funny. I think "hilarious songs" is an underrated use of AI. It used to require a lot to make a catchy tune, so we were limited to the output of the few comedians who were talented musicians. But the ability to have a silly theme song of this quality, for a joke game, friend group in-joke, or a company retreat... this is something I like about AI!
Not a joke, actual roundabout.
https://wsdot.wa.gov/construction-planning/search-projects/i...
I swear if the US could build regular roundabouts, converting an intersection would make the accident rate go down, instead of up.
They can and do build them.
The problem is that at intersections the normative behavior of American drivers is to queue and wait for your turn. Roundabouts assume a different behavior based on jumping the line.
Thus there is a lot of unpredictability regarding other drivers due to generations of driving patterns developed in diverse regional driving cultures...many of which are distinctly not-urban.
In addition, this roundabout is part of an Interstate Highway interchange. The US Interstate system is at a scale that doesn't occur elsewhere. It is transcontinental.
> The problem is that at intersections the normative behavior of American drivers is to queue and wait for your turn. Roundabouts assume a different behavior based on jumping the line.
I don't think it's that different from turning right on red, or left without an arrow, or even merging on to the highway from an onramp (maybe that's the most similar, traffic in the others aren't flowing the same direction as you).
even merging on to the highway from an onramp
Onramps with traffic lights are a thing in the US. They operate during rush hour.
I live near plenty of them, they still require to you merge with traffic after. You do "queue and wait for your turn", but immediately after you have to find a gap to insert yourself into before you run out of road.
There is a roundabout near me that gets quite low traffic volume. I probably only have to even slow below 20mph about 10% of the time. The bigger risk is that the car in front of me is going to come to a complete stop at the yield sign despite the fact that you can see any potential conflicts at least 100 feet before the roundabout.
American drivers don’t know that a yield doesn’t require a stop and can’t think more than one or two seconds ahead of any possible conflict in traffic.
"American drivers are too safe" is a new complaint to me.
Stopping at yield signs when there is no other traffic is the opposite of safe.
Perhaps they need to start building more roundabouts on smaller intersections, and improve education in driving schools. Then give it time (decades).
The US has been building roundabouts for about 30 years.
It has a lot of intersections.
Reconfiguring intersections is expensive and disruptive. Stop signs and traffic lights take less space and are often the simplest thing that might work.
From what I understand roundabouts make accident rate go up, it is the severity of accidents that goes down which probably still a positive.
That said I have yet to drive through a roundabout that I think improved an intersection in any meaningful way. Half of them work as intended but I find them less pleasant to drive through, the other half are just horribly designed and often have semitrucks go through them when they aren't really large enough for that.
>From what I understand roundabouts make accident rate go up,
"Studies of intersections in the United States converted from traffic signals or stop signs to roundabouts have found reductions in injury crashes of 72%-80% and reductions in all crashes of 35%-47%"
https://www.iihs.org/research-areas/roundabouts#safety-benef...
> From what I understand roundabouts make accident rate go up, it is the severity of accidents that goes down which probably still a positive.
That's the argument I keep hearing, but I'm not sure I buy it. Fewer people might be injured physically but even low speed accidents can cost thousands in repairs if not total your car, so going from a few people being hurt a year to multiple people losing their cars or being forced to pay out thousands every few weeks doesn't seem like a win to me.
I was surprised that the U.S. probably only has around 11,000 roundabouts. I thought it would be higher. If they were as popular as they are in my local area, there would be over 70,000 in the U.S.
https://roundabouts.kittelson.com/
This game hijacks my f5 key and alt key. I'm using brave browser on ubuntu. Can't navigate back or refresh while the game is playing. I rarely see this, maybe never have. I wonder how that is achieved?
That combination of soundtrack and graphics reminds me of [1]
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_n%27_Roll_Racing
I love this roundabout, we live down the street from it. People around here drive comically bad, mostly from what i suspect is simple inexperience (many new drivers), with a surprising side of entitlement (super rich area). Together, its become my favorite experience to see all the ways people fail to navigate this wild "roundabout".
And yet it still mostly works, and is loads faster than the former lights that were there before, so i suspect it will be a success in most eyes once everyone adapts.
For additional fun, check out the sticker price on this intersection overhaul (which includes much more than the round about).
It's been not so great for me so far, but I think that's because the street I often take before getting into the roundabout is still reduced to one lane each way due to construction; once it's back to two lanes each way, I think it'll be fine.
In my town of Shrewsbury PA we have a diverging diamond traffic pattern(it's sorta like a figure 8). I have no issue with it tho I have seen a car accident or two there. Roundabouts are simple and so is the diverging diamond.
Just shared a relevant video for anyone interested: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48565808
The top down view seems to make this extra confusing:
1. You don't get to see signage that tells you what lane to be in
2. You are forced to take in irrelevant details.
The new 85th St & I-405 interchange is horrible. I took it twice and both times it's too stressful and takes much longer to get off 405.
Love it, you’ve got to do 132nd street next. Trying to exit south bound during rush hour is delightful
"time for bed" said Zebedee.
This is so stressful to play. Can you change the music?
Hilariously great
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Roundabouts are almost always a bad idea. Thank God they are mostly a European thing.
Four way stops that require all traffic to stop for no particular reason are always a bad idea. They're a waste of time and resources.
Two way stops are OFTEN a bad idea, because they require two directions of travel to stop for _sometimes_ no particular reason. (And then they often cannot go without an extensive wait).
Roundabouts are almost always a good idea, assuming there is sufficient traffic. They keep traffic flowing faster, more predictably, and with fewer accidents.
No, they just interrupt the flow of traffic by slowing it down. The classic pattern of side roads with less traffic yielding to incoming traffic on the main road carrying more traffic is the correct road layout that minimizes frustration and confusion. Roundabouts are the favorite tool of left-leaning, anti-car, vanilla soy latte-sipping urban planners.
No, they reduce the number of accidents, and also reduce the severity of accidents.
Good to know that I'm getting to my destination faster and more safely all because of woke!
https://www.iihs.org/research-areas/roundabouts#traffic-flow...
Btw your 'classic pattern' of highly unbalanced traffic flows is specifically called out as a non-ideal candidate for a roundabout, maybe the urban planners get cow milk in their lattes after all.
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