I have been to a couple of CCC events in my late teens'ish. Around 26C3.
Over all can recommend, at least as a groups. I used it to meet some online friends for the frist time. Wifi / wardriving nerds that I spend a lot of time with online.
But man, I think I have never been at a place with so many small negative experience with other people. Death by a thousand paper cuts. One older man out of nowhere loudly proclaimed I was Anti-semetic, because I was wearing a Palestinian keffiyeh. When sitting in the cellar in the "hacking area", friends of mine and me where coding on kismet or aircrack-ng, when someone from the neighboring desk asked what we where doing. After I told him he only lifted his nose slightly and with a smug smile said "Oh, that's what you call hacking today?"
At one camp, where there even was an event on photography, someone I met almost went into a rage every time he saw a camera. Not pointed at him, just someone with a camera. Off he went to tell the camera owner about how it was last camp and his opinion ..
Everything just minor interaction. But as a whole it's just not people I want to hang around with any more.
This is very much true. I have met some if the coolest people in CCCs but also some of the worst people. I miss the atmosphere but I don't miss the selfimportant assholes everywhere.
I just wish I could get Floral Mate here, the Tschunk is not the same without it.
ETA: it was actually the Russian invasion of Ukraine that broke my perception of German people and thus CCC for me. But that's a different story.
I’ve been a hacker since the Cap’n Crunch days, I’ve been involved with many hackerspaces around the world, used to sit at the pay phones in Union Station waiting for distant calls, some forgotten first Friday of the month .. and all I can say, anecdotally, is that this death by a thousand cuts is par for the course.
Hacker culture has been co-opted by a broad spectrum of folks - and a big part of the value of CCC is navigating that spectrum.
I’ve met plenty of folks that are annoying as fuck in this scene - but I’ve also met plenty of folks who are just great.
As for the camera thing - Germans have an aversion to being held accountable for their actions in public. It is a deep-seated fear of consequences born from a culture that literally thought it was acceptable, not so long ago, to spy on ones neighbors. They cram themselves into boxes upon boxes and live on top of 2000 other people they want nothing to do with. Just remind them, public photography is not a crime, and that there is no right to privacy in the public sphere, and why don’t they just smile and enjoy the fact that they are frozen in time on some strangers device, just like a strangers memory they have no right to erase. This is the needed context.
> Just remind them, public photography is not a crime
Photographing at CCC events (Congress and Camp) is permitted only if you get permission from all the people depicted on the photo. Yes, this makes wide shots of crowds effectively impossible to take there without breaking the event's rules. Everyone present there has agreed to that rule by coming there, so it's not unreasonable to expect them not to break it even if it's not a crime.
CCC is a private event and does not fall within the purview of the right to public photography.
Anyway, I don’t go to CCC to take pictures of people - although this is an unfortunate policy because it means that the culture of CCC is not recorded for posterity …
I think it would be a better policy for CCC to require photographers to wear a special easily recognized t-shirt or funny hat, so that they could take pictures of crowds but give non-participants time to dissent.
The entitlement of "I can photograph whatever I want"-people is unmatched, which is nicely demonstrated by this thread. Disrespectful, entitled and self-scentered.... individuals.
The disrespect, entitlement and self-centered posturing goes both ways though, yo.
“No, sorry, I wasn’t taking a picture of you, I was taking a picture of that cute dog - you just happened to be in the background, and I wouldn’t have anything to do with you if you weren’t so paranoid and self-centered…”
Public photography is a right which needs to be protected - by the public.
Just ask Rodney King. Or, you know, the children of Gaza.
> Just remind them, public photography is not a crime, and that there is no right to privacy in the public sphere,
That maybe true in some places. But it's a lot more nuanced in Germany. The "easy" one is publishing a picture where individuals are key to the picture (not background noise) that is clearly protected and requires permission.
It becomes a lot more complex when just taking a picture and not publishing it. There are arguments about this already being problematic due to processing of personal data etc.
However at CCC it becomes easy again: It's private ground, not public. And then they can forbid and be done. Then you need a legal argument about you taking a picture being more important than their rights. And no, American freedom of speech or so doesn't work.
It’s a double-edged sword, and I concur that public photography should not be weaponized against the individual.
However, if I see a crime being committed, you can be sure I will be taking photo’s and dealing with the personal consequences later.
I am on the “public photography is not a crime and I don’t need anyone’s permission to record my personal experience” side of the debate, because I think that a society which does not allow free and open recording of events in the public sphere endangers itself, immensely.
I know it is incomprehensible to a lot of Germans, but without public photography being an open and uncontrolled activity, we wouldn’t have had the civil rights movement in the USA.
We wouldn’t know what was happening in Gaza every minute of the day.
There is a duty to protect this right in a free and open society - not just the American version of it - not just to record incivility and injustice, but also to promote the changes of culture in a society over time.
Would modern Germans have as much self awareness and responsibility for their state, if there were no candid photos of Sophie Scholl for future generations to refer to? A society which eschews such occurrences, endangers itself - indeed, censors itself. Germans are, after all, pretty much used to censoring themselves - but I think this has its limits and should not be tolerated.
So, I claim and exercise this activity because I think, as a responsible member of a society, it is important to hold the camera up - at times.
For sure, if someone asks me, I will comply with their wishes - I have no desire to confront a stranger with embarrassment or harassment by their own personal image - but I also think its necessary to resist the roboticism on this issue, particularly in Germany.
FWIW, it isn't just CCC. Most previously relatively private events/groups have now acquired professional influencers ( including more recent dashcam shaming trend ), snake oil peddlers or clout chasers. We just had midwest vintage computer expo here and while some things did get better, some things parent said immediately triggered the comparison.
I don’t really understand what you’re saying, could you expand on it? MWVCE is a private event, the organizers can set the policy at the door - are you saying that folks were not willing to comply with the policies?
What I am saying that the cultural zeitgeist has changed sufficiently that it is very, very different from the one of only 20-30 back. Way back when I was but a wee lad, we didn't go around taking pictures of strangers for public entertainment almost regardless of public facing policies regarding said strangers. It is a very different frame of mind. I think I can officially say farewell to that world.
> it was acceptable, not so long ago, to spy on ones neighbors.
It'still acceptable by the way. I had a guy whom I swear I have seen for the first and last time, allegedly my neighbour, call me by my first name and comment on my garbage-separating habits
Yes indeed, there is an undercurrent of this culture still lurking in the shadows.
I think it’s a consequence of the architecture, personally.
Germans aren’t actually used to having a lot of privacy - I often cringe when I hear my neighbor flush their toilet, and I live in an ‘innenhof’ surrounded by the noisy lives of a vast array of cultures, yelling at each other and having sex and calling their kids back in from the yards for dinner. We all live on top of each other, and for some people this is reason enough to snoop.
>garbage-separating habits
This is a make or break issue for a lot of Germans, it’s true. I personally believe its because the maintenance costs of the apartment/communal living waste admin are borne by all tenants, so this gives folks the idea that they have a ‘right’ to police each other over it.
I’ve learned my own quirks over the years, living in DACH states. I recently found myself seriously judging people by the nature and form - and indeed, strategic availability - of the house shoe spoon. If there isn’t one, you’re about to enter the house of a heathen. If there is one, but it’s small, a sadist. If it’s a long one, strategically placed right by the spot you’re expected to deposit your shoes - a mensch. If it’s wooden, a hippy mensch. If it’s metal, a right-wing mensch.
I’m sorry, Oida, I can’t help it. The shoe spoon is a social indicator! (Edit: I’m joking, a metal shoe spoon doesn’t make you a fascist - its more of a mental game I play while taking off my shoes at a new friends’ house, and I do have to say I am correcting myself on this habit of pigeon holing on the basis of the nature of ones shoe spoon, although I find it amusing as a mental game I do recognize its a prejudice I’m forming in my old age…)
Being intrusive is one thing. But this guy apparently waited until I was bringing out my garbage and go back, rushed to the paper bin to see my name and checked the quality, all without me seeing him, repeatedly, and I believe he did that with other neighbours too. That's basically a second job
German here. I never thought this was about privacy, but there is definitely a tendency to follow the rules because they are The Rules regardless of how much sense they make - and then judge others by it, or go into Cover Your Ass mode because you fear to be judged yourself.
> If it’s a long one, strategically placed right by the spot you’re expected to deposit your shoes - a mensch. If it’s wooden, a hippy mensch. If it’s metal, a right-wing mensch.
I got a long one, made of metal, but I never knew it makes you right-wing! I just bought it because it's by far the most sturdy one available and I absolutely can't stand the plastic (or small) ones.
It doesn’t actually make you right-wing, I’m just kidding around - as someone who has broken more than my fair share of ethically sourced bamboo shoe spoons, now replaced with a metal one, I am fully taking the piss.
But, it’s more that I caught myself formulating this opinion after being in a DACH culture for some time. I think this is DACH’ness, seeping into my mindset ..
I think Germany is not the same as the US in regards to expectations of privacy in public when it comes to photography. Also there are plenty of signs and warnings at CCC to respect privacy and not take pics without consent…
Yes, Germany absolutely has a right to privacy in the public sphere
It's a nuanced right that has to be weighted against other rights and societal benefits. On the street it's usually easy: your picture can contain crowds or people who are there incidentally, but if you point the camera at a person you need their consent. But at a gathering like the CCC even being an identifiable member of the crowd might create issues for people, and you have to take that into account as photographer (both ethically and legally)
>if you point the camera at a person you need their consent
In public spaces (streets, squares, etc.), you may generally photograph people without consent for purely private/non-commercial purposes, as long as it is not intrusive, secretive in a way that invades privacy, or shows them in a state of helplessness, intimacy, or compromise (the latter can also trigger criminal provisions under § 201a StGB).
Casual or incidental street photography is usually fine; highly targeted or harassing photography of individuals can still violate general personality rights.
However - the key rule (Recht am eigenen Bild under §§ 22–23 Kunsturhebergesetz / KUG) mainly restricts publishing or publicly displaying recognizable images of people, not merely taking them in public.
This is a distinction many Germans do not quite comprehend - but it is also the case that it’s not very well understood in the USA, too.
Disclaimer: I am a recordist, I am responsible for a few well-received (even by the original artists themselves) bootleg recordings of famous gigs, I have a strong bias towards recording public environments and a heavy aversion to any censorship, whatsoever. Given that, however, if someone asks me not to take their picture, I first give them the option of receiving a copy for their own purposes, and if they decline, I respectfully delete.
> I have a strong bias towards recording public environments and a heavy aversion to any censorship, whatsoever.
This is a balancing of legally protected interests [Güterabwägung] between privacy and censhorship. Independently of what the law may say, many Germans are strongly biased towards privacy here. Be also aware that in Germany the strong US-American concept of "free speech" does not exist; the laws that do exist are weaker.
> Given that, however, if someone asks me not to take their picture, I first give them the option of receiving a copy for their own purposes, and if they decline, I respectfully delete.
Why not ask for permission instead of objection? (even if, as you claim, the formal written law may be on your side)?
> Why not ask for permission instead of objection?
Because in most cases it was never my intention to photograph a stranger - they imposed this into the conversation by contacting me - most of the time I’m taking pictures of a lovely park, or a nice flower arrangement, or the broken beer glasses in the street after Carnival - and it is only after being interrupted that I offer the option. I certainly do not take photographs of random strangers unless it somehow captures the idyl of the scene, usually.
And in many cases actually, the conversation starts off irritable but ends quite friendly, especially if the photo is a good one and the person changes their mind and wants a copy.
It is possible to pivot from annoyance to friendliness. Especially if one understands the laws and the reasoning behind them.
They are run by different people, though there is a lot of cross contamination and groups going to both.
I think the real difference is the setup, CCC is in a exhibition hall, while events like WHY are on a field and require you to camp.
In that regard, you can compare CCCamp (what is different from CCC) more with WHY.
> One older man out of nowhere loudly proclaimed I was Anti-semetic, because I was wearing a Palestinian keffiyeh.
Yep, and tell that to anybody who got either kicked out of the country or lost their livelihood by commenting against the Palestinian genocide in the social media.
It's very easy to get into actual dehumanising rhetoric and genocidal slogans ("from the river to the sea"); but nobody actually cares enough to fire you for voicing your opinion on a middle eastern conflict.
Unless you're working in the US military or intelligence services, where being biased in favour of proscribed organisations can be seen as a potential for leaking state secrets to terror organisations or sanctioned states like Iran.
But that's not unique to Iran, it would be true of Russia, Cuba, North Korea- I totally understand the irony from Orange in Chief and his ties to Russia, but that's something else.
> someone I met almost went into a rage every time he saw a camera.
The rage may be too much but the taboo on taking photo that is real and cultural normal that will be enforced or made to feel embarrassed for doing (i.e. 'lets not be the stasi'). That's the cultural norm of there and that scene. You visited from the states, correct? Bay area but the guess "small negative experience" - the idea of we are going around experiencing things and our life is a product of these experiences we consume and interpersonal politics - that's very california "the personal is the political" or that it's some how a consumption experience we "have" and who we "are" is coloured by these "experiences" etc (a fish in the water "what is water?")
One thing in German culture I very appreciate (as australian) is the "polite complaining" as in - you know a German cares if they will share with you what is wrong (and then they will have solution) as Australian we just complain about the big things (but never on your mates or people on your level) hehe "the government" etc - German - politely complain (and here's the patch) etc hehe In both cases it's a sort of affection or closeness if they tell you what they really think
it's not seen negative it's seen like 'of course we have feelings good and bad' etc
All generalising of course.
This could I see easily clash with american culture where often it's positivity all the time and it's seen taboo to say something bad - as if it's letting down the 'team' or it must be personal again 'you' or something - where as kinda truthfulness and integrity seen as the thing there - say as it is or as feel etc
Also another thing you might notice (probably less in Hamburg but in Berlin or something) in winter you want to go for a swim - that's the spa. Everyone is naked. This can come a shock to, say, a culture like the US that had the puritans - that people being naked is not sexualised any way. Actually the US because the norm is "naked" = "naked fun" that can lead to perhaps the most confusing cultural mishap. This might be related to photos also. For instance - in Australia it's increasingly less common people sunbath naked. In east europe and nordics - being naked in spa is just common.
Also: new years eve - they try to blow up everything. In a civilised city it blew my mind to see folks firing guns in the air.
Yes! There's some differences.
Saying that: there's assholes everywhere and don't let the 5-20% allocation of asshole influence your opinion of the 80% of the cool calm quiet
Hmmm... this comment is long... I may be the asshole. Ok,
> Bay area but the guess "small negative experience" - the idea of we are going around experiencing things and our life is a product of these experiences we consume and interpersonal politics - that's very california "the personal is the political" or that it's some how a consumption experience we "have" and who we "are" is coloured by these "experiences" etc (a fish in the water "what is water?")
you might be giving them another small negative experience. you've certainly given me one.
Not sure anyone responsible for how you feel, but I accept you feel that way, and that is regretable! Please forgive (if something I said affected negatively), and perhaps (well ... certainly) I could be better expressing. I just typed it out in haste
They don't see security cameras because there are very, very few in Germany and the few that exist are in train stations, or private areas like INSIDE a business, or INSIDE a private estate, pointing inwards since they're seldom allowed to film outwards
And quite averse/backwater (choose your version) on using debit/credit cards. Which is mindblowing from my Easter European perspective. I didn't use cash in a decade.
> the idea of we are going around experiencing things and our life is a product of these experiences we consume and interpersonal politics - that's very california "the personal is the political"
That's a very superficial reduction of the meaning of that phrase. It's worth reading the original 1969 essay with that title:
> The bad things that are said about us as women are either myths (women are stupid), tactics women use to struggle individually (women are bitches), or are actually things that we want to carry into the new society and want men to share too (women are sensitive, emotional). Women as oppressed people act out of necessity (act dumb in the presence of men), not out of choice. Women have developed great shuffling techniques for their own survival (look pretty and giggle to get or keep a job or man) which should be used when necessary until such time as the power of unity can take its place. Women are smart not to struggle alone (as are blacks and workers). It is no worse to be in the home than in the rat race of the job world. They are both bad. Women, like blacks, workers, must stop blaming ourselves for our “failures.”
The author was dealing with and responding to very real oppression, and pointing out in part that day-to-day interactions were consequences of, and contributors to, that oppression. That's one sense in which "the personal is political."
The introduction also points out where the overall insight came from:
> However, many on the SCEF [Southern Conference Educational Fund] staff, both men and women, ended up joining the criticism of women getting together in consciousness-raising groups to discuss their own oppression as “[navel]-gazing” and “personal therapy”—and certainly “not political.”
> They could sometimes admit that women were oppressed (but only by “the system”) and said that we should have equal pay for equal work, and some other “rights.” But they belittled us no end for trying to bring our so-called “personal problems” into the public arena—especially “all those body issues” like sex, appearance, and abortion. Our demands that men share the housework and childcare were likewise deemed a personal problem between a woman and her individual man.
In that context, the personal was political in a very concrete, direct sense.
Another Australian checking in, living in a DACH country with life experience in most of them .. Germans are averse to social culpability in ways that Australians (and Americans) are not .. whereas in the US you’ll get a neighborhood watch person on your case for not cutting the grass in the right direction, in Germany you’ll get a grumpy unwashed totalitarian who literally thinks you’re gestapo because you took photos in the public park. Actually, come to think of it, you’ll get a grumpy German complaining about the grass cutting too, never mind that analogy.
Basically, westerners need to realize that the war shock is still reverberating through DACH cultures - remember, German’s were perfectly okay with having their neighborhoods ‘cleansed’ of those their state considered inferior - and then had to suffer decades of persecution for it - whereas Americans see themselves as victors in the freedom game, which is quite pathetic because the freedoms enjoyed in German streets on the regular would have half the American nation birth kittens in conniptions.
I’ll never forget how relieved I felt when I first cracked open a beer on the street in Germany. I don’t do it often, it’s not a thing I really see myself doing a lot. But just the idea of being able to take a couple beers to the park on a picnic with my new German girlfriend, and take a few naughty pictures of her (at her request and with full consent), washed away all the pretense I had, having (at the time) recently relocated from California, where I literally witnessed kids getting their heads bashed in by police for complaining about getting a ticket for having an unopened six pack in the back seat…. I don’t fear German cops, I find them completely amusing. I do everything I can to avoid American cops.
But you know .. Australians too, have their quirks in this regards. I’ve never met a more uncouth nation, frankly. The vitriol and invective I encountered, visiting my homeland again, just for speaking a bit of German on the train with my kids, was overwhelming… from little old ladies who should know better than to challenge a well-traveled cosmopolitan sandgroper on the subject of language. Oh, how their faces vacuumed into themselves once I explained that I was, in fact, Australian, and that I consider anyone who only speaks a single language vastly inferior to those who speak many - just as the original caretakers of the stolen land did!
All in, I prefer living in a DACH nation than either Australia or USA, unwashed totalitarian personalities notwithstanding. It’s just a more relaxed culture, all things considered. The war shock reverberates, but in the corners of it all you will find a lot more free thought than most of the western world.
And that’s another great reason to go to CCC and see for yourself: the freedoms of thought on display.
If you live in Germany and would like to experience this on a smaller scale THIS WEEKEND, come to the CCC conference in Dresden, called Datenspuren, run by our local CCC Erfa-Kreis C3D2. It takes place from 18.09 - 20.09 in Zentralwerk Dresden.
It is a beautiful and inclusive environment that highlights not only a lot local hackers, but also a lot of artists.
I was there last year and it was amazing! I totally recommend it.
You can find more info about the event and the featured talks and events here:
Perhaps and thats wonderful for these people but stating that only 20 and single can go to the congress is as generic as my response.
The congress was always booked out, its not that the congress has any attendance issues and its not that OP never had the chance to visit and never will have the chance to visit when his/her kids get older.
I take the whole family. There is something for everyone there and Christmas in Germany is next level. Even kids. Every parent should want kids to see that kind of creative energy to model as they mature. My wife will not go to Defcon but she loves CCC.
I agree that the timing is suboptimal in a family context, or at least it was when the kids were younger. Now that they are tech-savvy teenagers, I took them with me last year, and they enjoyed exploring the congress both with me and on their own. My wife is fine with it and enjoys some me-time after Christmas.
Lots of families there every year and older folks too, it’s actually a great date for a lot of IT folks as there aren’t many weeks when companies are effectively shut down, maybe even only this one week.
I actually know several people who regularly visit the 3C with their families and children. There are a lot of cool activities for kids from a certain age (10-ish). Even without all the social programm, there are plenty of talks which are interesting to non-IT people.
Yeah, would be feasible if tickets wouldn't be so hard to get for externals. Ain't no way my partner would hang out for a year every week with me in a hackerspace
I have absolutely no connection to CCC whatsoever and yet whenever I wanted to go to a CCC event (3 Camps and 2 Congresses so far, the first time in 2015), I could and when I wanted to take my partner with me, I could do that too. You just have to be fast to get the tickets before they're sold out, that's pretty much all there is to it.
Depends on when it was. Congress was less popular in the past so you could get a ticket.
Nowadays, most tickets go to hackerspaces and volunteers but the open sale sells out in seconds.
Camps are much easier to get to.
I did get my tickets volunteering for like a decade but last year I gave up - volunteering the whole event so I get a chance to go to the next event ... where I would volunteer the while event. That's not a good time.
Especially when there's more and more volunteers competing for work so they get a voucher - while the oldschoolers have no need for any of that because they can always get a ticket through backchannels.
Funny how CCC managed to recreate the worst aspects of capitalism as part of their leftist conference.
In the past it was "The Usual Suspects", now it is "Model Citizens". Back then smoking indoors at conferences was a topic hackers would discuss. Now I'm sure it will be a very serious conference full of grown-ups.
Will not be able to attend this year :'-) Have to ask friends to get me a "Model Citizen" shirt!
For me the smoking hall going away was a turning point in the culture at CCC for the worse. Sitting there and smoking weed with random people are some of my favorite memories. It feels less like disneyland for hackers each year
I tried it last year at every slot and had no chance at all.
Lots of tickets could be found on "Kleinanzeigen" after that and I think the club was quick to get them deleted and try to contain Scalping as much as possible.
With the newer, bigger location, I hope chances are better for a solo person. Hackerspaces have a reserved package I think, but I'm not really affiliated with those in my area, so that's not really an option for me.
For now I got a hotel reservation, that's just as important... :-D
I don't think there is outsiders vs the rest. Either you propose content, accepted talks or workshops, and you can come or you buy a ticket. Everybody has the same "chance". If you miss the ticket but really want to come you can try your luck at the entrance, there are usually always some people who can't make it but it's of course a bet.
I remember a mechanism where you could redeem a single-use invite token, which would return another single-use token when consumed, which could then be chained idefinitely. Local CCC groups where given a few such tokens to get their members and friends in.
I moved to central Silicon Valley where it all began hoping to have an endless supply of hackers building communities to hang out in. I can count on one hand the people that meet my definition of a hacker that do things for public good or personal curiosity rather than profit... in 10 years. It is a buy culture, not a build culture. "Engineers" who cannot install operating systems for themselves anymore and rely on a Genius Bar when they have a computer oopsie.
And Defcon... the average attendee is a corporate ghoul who only got into this for money, and has no care for anything they cannot readily leverage to further their careers. Even the privacy village has no idea how to use open source software let alone self host anything and just asks people to sign up to their slack, discord, and google groups. It is a disgrace.
But CCC really is the closest place I can go on the planet to hang out with tens of thousands of real hackers, most of which are not even employed in the industry, who just build incredible things with open source as a community because they can. Art everywhere, punk concerts in the bathrooms, their own phone networks built from scratch, underground bars built from scrap wood, no questions asked bring-your-own-server farms, and volunteer culture at its best.
Truly, going to CCC every year I can is how I get hope for the culture that might be possible in the valley again some day. I am going to do whatever it takes to bring that energy back to the valley to motivate all the smart minds here that their skills exist for more than creating shareholder value.
I heard security failed to treat someone correctly after an attempted robbery, tbh put me off CCC. Not trying to be negative just hope they address this I was kinda taken aback.
EDIT > Instead of downvoting me you could defend yourself, say something chill like "security is better this year" or ask for clarification I have no agenda
Hacker conference: against authoritarian government, with talk about security, privacy, opsec etc.
Also: can only buy ticket online with credit card and real name, no onsite sell available, your name is probably give to conference administrator for checking ticket, he will probably give it to third parties or keep it for "good reasons", etc.
Don't get me wrong, I like the talks, they are very good. It is just a bit funny for me. They can't try harder to be hackers? Or is it like this in germany always?
> Hacker conference: against authoritarian government, with talk about security, privacy, opsec etc.
> Also: can only buy ticket online with credit card and real name, no onsite sell available, your name is probably give to conference administrator for checking ticket, he will probably give it to third parties or keep it for "good reasons", etc.
I am indeed quite certain that many hackers in Germany independently already devised the same thoughts ...
Go to the local smaller CCC conferences, where you can pay with things like GNU Taler or cryptocurrency, and the entry is often free anyway, with a donation being appreciated or buying event merch being a nice alternative to simply donating.
I think the hacker spirit is definitely alive & kicking in those smaller CCC events.
I'd never heard of GNU Taler but the FAQ left me even more confused.
> Can I send money to my friends with Taler?
Taler supports push and pull payments between wallets (also known as peer-to-peer payments). While the payment appears to be directly between wallets, technically the operation is intermediated by the payment service provider which will typically be legally required to identify the recipient of the funds before allowing the transaction to complete.
Also the funds have an expiration date (forced spending). Who is this for? My naive read seems like it has all the downsides of bitcoin and more with none of its upsides
The doc won't point it out explicitly and I apologize if my explanation offends anybody, but the intention is basically leftist, state-friendly bitcoin. The authors took a look at the anarchy of real cryptocurrencies and realized they don't actually like anarchy, so instead they want to make something "wholesome" that governments would be willing to go along with (since they can tax it).
They are funded by EU and banks in an attempt to claw back some market share from cryptocurrencies which are slowly getting banned.
That's the official position. I'm pretty sure, but of course I'm not suggesting you do so, that if you pay with a prepaid credit card and call yourself Random Person you will have no problem. As I said in another thread you can also just show up and buy ticket cash at the entrance from whomever sells them, but of course you risk not getting a ticket. Depends on your concerns. I'm pretty sure if you have a better solution but such large scale event you can contribute directly.
I'm also pretty sure if you have something genuinely uniquely valuable to contribute but can only participate anonymously you can contact organizers and they'll find a way, regardless of ticket availability.
The politics of C3 is mixture of older anarcho communist hackers and contemporary progressive statists. So against authoritarian government, if it's right-wing, and privacy to protect against surveillance capitalism (rather than from the state).
So things like bitcoin are not liked as they're outside of the state and money should be a function of a benevolent left-wing state.
I have been to a couple of CCC events in my late teens'ish. Around 26C3.
Over all can recommend, at least as a groups. I used it to meet some online friends for the frist time. Wifi / wardriving nerds that I spend a lot of time with online.
But man, I think I have never been at a place with so many small negative experience with other people. Death by a thousand paper cuts. One older man out of nowhere loudly proclaimed I was Anti-semetic, because I was wearing a Palestinian keffiyeh. When sitting in the cellar in the "hacking area", friends of mine and me where coding on kismet or aircrack-ng, when someone from the neighboring desk asked what we where doing. After I told him he only lifted his nose slightly and with a smug smile said "Oh, that's what you call hacking today?"
At one camp, where there even was an event on photography, someone I met almost went into a rage every time he saw a camera. Not pointed at him, just someone with a camera. Off he went to tell the camera owner about how it was last camp and his opinion ..
Everything just minor interaction. But as a whole it's just not people I want to hang around with any more.
This is very much true. I have met some if the coolest people in CCCs but also some of the worst people. I miss the atmosphere but I don't miss the selfimportant assholes everywhere.
I just wish I could get Floral Mate here, the Tschunk is not the same without it.
ETA: it was actually the Russian invasion of Ukraine that broke my perception of German people and thus CCC for me. But that's a different story.
I’ve been a hacker since the Cap’n Crunch days, I’ve been involved with many hackerspaces around the world, used to sit at the pay phones in Union Station waiting for distant calls, some forgotten first Friday of the month .. and all I can say, anecdotally, is that this death by a thousand cuts is par for the course.
Hacker culture has been co-opted by a broad spectrum of folks - and a big part of the value of CCC is navigating that spectrum.
I’ve met plenty of folks that are annoying as fuck in this scene - but I’ve also met plenty of folks who are just great.
As for the camera thing - Germans have an aversion to being held accountable for their actions in public. It is a deep-seated fear of consequences born from a culture that literally thought it was acceptable, not so long ago, to spy on ones neighbors. They cram themselves into boxes upon boxes and live on top of 2000 other people they want nothing to do with. Just remind them, public photography is not a crime, and that there is no right to privacy in the public sphere, and why don’t they just smile and enjoy the fact that they are frozen in time on some strangers device, just like a strangers memory they have no right to erase. This is the needed context.
> Just remind them, public photography is not a crime
Photographing at CCC events (Congress and Camp) is permitted only if you get permission from all the people depicted on the photo. Yes, this makes wide shots of crowds effectively impossible to take there without breaking the event's rules. Everyone present there has agreed to that rule by coming there, so it's not unreasonable to expect them not to break it even if it's not a crime.
https://events.ccc.de/congress/2025/infos/fundamentals-and-f...
CCC is a private event and does not fall within the purview of the right to public photography.
Anyway, I don’t go to CCC to take pictures of people - although this is an unfortunate policy because it means that the culture of CCC is not recorded for posterity …
I think it would be a better policy for CCC to require photographers to wear a special easily recognized t-shirt or funny hat, so that they could take pictures of crowds but give non-participants time to dissent.
The entitlement of "I can photograph whatever I want"-people is unmatched, which is nicely demonstrated by this thread. Disrespectful, entitled and self-scentered.... individuals.
The disrespect, entitlement and self-centered posturing goes both ways though, yo.
“No, sorry, I wasn’t taking a picture of you, I was taking a picture of that cute dog - you just happened to be in the background, and I wouldn’t have anything to do with you if you weren’t so paranoid and self-centered…”
Public photography is a right which needs to be protected - by the public.
Just ask Rodney King. Or, you know, the children of Gaza.
> Just remind them, public photography is not a crime, and that there is no right to privacy in the public sphere,
That maybe true in some places. But it's a lot more nuanced in Germany. The "easy" one is publishing a picture where individuals are key to the picture (not background noise) that is clearly protected and requires permission.
It becomes a lot more complex when just taking a picture and not publishing it. There are arguments about this already being problematic due to processing of personal data etc.
However at CCC it becomes easy again: It's private ground, not public. And then they can forbid and be done. Then you need a legal argument about you taking a picture being more important than their rights. And no, American freedom of speech or so doesn't work.
It’s a double-edged sword, and I concur that public photography should not be weaponized against the individual.
However, if I see a crime being committed, you can be sure I will be taking photo’s and dealing with the personal consequences later.
I am on the “public photography is not a crime and I don’t need anyone’s permission to record my personal experience” side of the debate, because I think that a society which does not allow free and open recording of events in the public sphere endangers itself, immensely.
I know it is incomprehensible to a lot of Germans, but without public photography being an open and uncontrolled activity, we wouldn’t have had the civil rights movement in the USA.
We wouldn’t know what was happening in Gaza every minute of the day.
There is a duty to protect this right in a free and open society - not just the American version of it - not just to record incivility and injustice, but also to promote the changes of culture in a society over time.
Would modern Germans have as much self awareness and responsibility for their state, if there were no candid photos of Sophie Scholl for future generations to refer to? A society which eschews such occurrences, endangers itself - indeed, censors itself. Germans are, after all, pretty much used to censoring themselves - but I think this has its limits and should not be tolerated.
So, I claim and exercise this activity because I think, as a responsible member of a society, it is important to hold the camera up - at times.
For sure, if someone asks me, I will comply with their wishes - I have no desire to confront a stranger with embarrassment or harassment by their own personal image - but I also think its necessary to resist the roboticism on this issue, particularly in Germany.
FWIW, it isn't just CCC. Most previously relatively private events/groups have now acquired professional influencers ( including more recent dashcam shaming trend ), snake oil peddlers or clout chasers. We just had midwest vintage computer expo here and while some things did get better, some things parent said immediately triggered the comparison.
I don’t really understand what you’re saying, could you expand on it? MWVCE is a private event, the organizers can set the policy at the door - are you saying that folks were not willing to comply with the policies?
What triggered the comparison, specifically?
What I am saying that the cultural zeitgeist has changed sufficiently that it is very, very different from the one of only 20-30 back. Way back when I was but a wee lad, we didn't go around taking pictures of strangers for public entertainment almost regardless of public facing policies regarding said strangers. It is a very different frame of mind. I think I can officially say farewell to that world.
> it was acceptable, not so long ago, to spy on ones neighbors.
It'still acceptable by the way. I had a guy whom I swear I have seen for the first and last time, allegedly my neighbour, call me by my first name and comment on my garbage-separating habits
Yes indeed, there is an undercurrent of this culture still lurking in the shadows.
I think it’s a consequence of the architecture, personally.
Germans aren’t actually used to having a lot of privacy - I often cringe when I hear my neighbor flush their toilet, and I live in an ‘innenhof’ surrounded by the noisy lives of a vast array of cultures, yelling at each other and having sex and calling their kids back in from the yards for dinner. We all live on top of each other, and for some people this is reason enough to snoop.
>garbage-separating habits
This is a make or break issue for a lot of Germans, it’s true. I personally believe its because the maintenance costs of the apartment/communal living waste admin are borne by all tenants, so this gives folks the idea that they have a ‘right’ to police each other over it.
I’ve learned my own quirks over the years, living in DACH states. I recently found myself seriously judging people by the nature and form - and indeed, strategic availability - of the house shoe spoon. If there isn’t one, you’re about to enter the house of a heathen. If there is one, but it’s small, a sadist. If it’s a long one, strategically placed right by the spot you’re expected to deposit your shoes - a mensch. If it’s wooden, a hippy mensch. If it’s metal, a right-wing mensch.
I’m sorry, Oida, I can’t help it. The shoe spoon is a social indicator! (Edit: I’m joking, a metal shoe spoon doesn’t make you a fascist - its more of a mental game I play while taking off my shoes at a new friends’ house, and I do have to say I am correcting myself on this habit of pigeon holing on the basis of the nature of ones shoe spoon, although I find it amusing as a mental game I do recognize its a prejudice I’m forming in my old age…)
Being intrusive is one thing. But this guy apparently waited until I was bringing out my garbage and go back, rushed to the paper bin to see my name and checked the quality, all without me seeing him, repeatedly, and I believe he did that with other neighbours too. That's basically a second job
In a life of comfort, the mind makes its own travails.
It sounds like a quote? If not: beautifully put
I’ve heard it around in various forms, but this is my version. Thanks.
German here. I never thought this was about privacy, but there is definitely a tendency to follow the rules because they are The Rules regardless of how much sense they make - and then judge others by it, or go into Cover Your Ass mode because you fear to be judged yourself.
> If it’s a long one, strategically placed right by the spot you’re expected to deposit your shoes - a mensch. If it’s wooden, a hippy mensch. If it’s metal, a right-wing mensch.
I got a long one, made of metal, but I never knew it makes you right-wing! I just bought it because it's by far the most sturdy one available and I absolutely can't stand the plastic (or small) ones.
It doesn’t actually make you right-wing, I’m just kidding around - as someone who has broken more than my fair share of ethically sourced bamboo shoe spoons, now replaced with a metal one, I am fully taking the piss.
But, it’s more that I caught myself formulating this opinion after being in a DACH culture for some time. I think this is DACH’ness, seeping into my mindset ..
[delayed]
I think Germany is not the same as the US in regards to expectations of privacy in public when it comes to photography. Also there are plenty of signs and warnings at CCC to respect privacy and not take pics without consent…
Yes, Germany absolutely has a right to privacy in the public sphere
It's a nuanced right that has to be weighted against other rights and societal benefits. On the street it's usually easy: your picture can contain crowds or people who are there incidentally, but if you point the camera at a person you need their consent. But at a gathering like the CCC even being an identifiable member of the crowd might create issues for people, and you have to take that into account as photographer (both ethically and legally)
>if you point the camera at a person you need their consent
In public spaces (streets, squares, etc.), you may generally photograph people without consent for purely private/non-commercial purposes, as long as it is not intrusive, secretive in a way that invades privacy, or shows them in a state of helplessness, intimacy, or compromise (the latter can also trigger criminal provisions under § 201a StGB).
Casual or incidental street photography is usually fine; highly targeted or harassing photography of individuals can still violate general personality rights.
However - the key rule (Recht am eigenen Bild under §§ 22–23 Kunsturhebergesetz / KUG) mainly restricts publishing or publicly displaying recognizable images of people, not merely taking them in public.
This is a distinction many Germans do not quite comprehend - but it is also the case that it’s not very well understood in the USA, too.
Disclaimer: I am a recordist, I am responsible for a few well-received (even by the original artists themselves) bootleg recordings of famous gigs, I have a strong bias towards recording public environments and a heavy aversion to any censorship, whatsoever. Given that, however, if someone asks me not to take their picture, I first give them the option of receiving a copy for their own purposes, and if they decline, I respectfully delete.
> I have a strong bias towards recording public environments and a heavy aversion to any censorship, whatsoever.
This is a balancing of legally protected interests [Güterabwägung] between privacy and censhorship. Independently of what the law may say, many Germans are strongly biased towards privacy here. Be also aware that in Germany the strong US-American concept of "free speech" does not exist; the laws that do exist are weaker.
> Given that, however, if someone asks me not to take their picture, I first give them the option of receiving a copy for their own purposes, and if they decline, I respectfully delete.
Why not ask for permission instead of objection? (even if, as you claim, the formal written law may be on your side)?
> Why not ask for permission instead of objection?
Because in most cases it was never my intention to photograph a stranger - they imposed this into the conversation by contacting me - most of the time I’m taking pictures of a lovely park, or a nice flower arrangement, or the broken beer glasses in the street after Carnival - and it is only after being interrupted that I offer the option. I certainly do not take photographs of random strangers unless it somehow captures the idyl of the scene, usually.
And in many cases actually, the conversation starts off irritable but ends quite friendly, especially if the photo is a good one and the person changes their mind and wants a copy.
It is possible to pivot from annoyance to friendliness. Especially if one understands the laws and the reasoning behind them.
That's just Germany for ya. Source: Am German
A shame, as a Spaniard my German boss always said that I was more German than him...never sure as to take it flattering or otherwise.
Of course he said if I was to be a German I would be from Berlin....apparently those folks can make a public budget work.
This was around the financial crisis. Not this one upcoming, the last one.
Being German and being German from Berlin are not the same thing.
I'd take the Berlin thing as a compliment.
The German thing alone wouldn't be one.
> Not this one upcoming, the last one.
)))
...maybe he wasnt from Germany but from another country from DACH region? :-D
Are the Dutch meet-ups better? Wanted to get to why2025 but couldn’t.
They are run by different people, though there is a lot of cross contamination and groups going to both.
I think the real difference is the setup, CCC is in a exhibition hall, while events like WHY are on a field and require you to camp. In that regard, you can compare CCCamp (what is different from CCC) more with WHY.
I had a great time at PyData Amsterdam last year. Terrific people!
I always like Fosdem (in Belgium, very close.)
As an Austrian, I agree with this German :-)
> One older man out of nowhere loudly proclaimed I was Anti-semetic, because I was wearing a Palestinian keffiyeh.
Yep, and tell that to anybody who got either kicked out of the country or lost their livelihood by commenting against the Palestinian genocide in the social media.
I don't believe this happened.
It's very easy to get into actual dehumanising rhetoric and genocidal slogans ("from the river to the sea"); but nobody actually cares enough to fire you for voicing your opinion on a middle eastern conflict.
Unless you're working in the US military or intelligence services, where being biased in favour of proscribed organisations can be seen as a potential for leaking state secrets to terror organisations or sanctioned states like Iran.
But that's not unique to Iran, it would be true of Russia, Cuba, North Korea- I totally understand the irony from Orange in Chief and his ties to Russia, but that's something else.
> someone I met almost went into a rage every time he saw a camera.
The rage may be too much but the taboo on taking photo that is real and cultural normal that will be enforced or made to feel embarrassed for doing (i.e. 'lets not be the stasi'). That's the cultural norm of there and that scene. You visited from the states, correct? Bay area but the guess "small negative experience" - the idea of we are going around experiencing things and our life is a product of these experiences we consume and interpersonal politics - that's very california "the personal is the political" or that it's some how a consumption experience we "have" and who we "are" is coloured by these "experiences" etc (a fish in the water "what is water?")
One thing in German culture I very appreciate (as australian) is the "polite complaining" as in - you know a German cares if they will share with you what is wrong (and then they will have solution) as Australian we just complain about the big things (but never on your mates or people on your level) hehe "the government" etc - German - politely complain (and here's the patch) etc hehe In both cases it's a sort of affection or closeness if they tell you what they really think
it's not seen negative it's seen like 'of course we have feelings good and bad' etc
All generalising of course.
This could I see easily clash with american culture where often it's positivity all the time and it's seen taboo to say something bad - as if it's letting down the 'team' or it must be personal again 'you' or something - where as kinda truthfulness and integrity seen as the thing there - say as it is or as feel etc
Also another thing you might notice (probably less in Hamburg but in Berlin or something) in winter you want to go for a swim - that's the spa. Everyone is naked. This can come a shock to, say, a culture like the US that had the puritans - that people being naked is not sexualised any way. Actually the US because the norm is "naked" = "naked fun" that can lead to perhaps the most confusing cultural mishap. This might be related to photos also. For instance - in Australia it's increasingly less common people sunbath naked. In east europe and nordics - being naked in spa is just common.
Also: new years eve - they try to blow up everything. In a civilised city it blew my mind to see folks firing guns in the air.
Yes! There's some differences.
Saying that: there's assholes everywhere and don't let the 5-20% allocation of asshole influence your opinion of the 80% of the cool calm quiet
Hmmm... this comment is long... I may be the asshole. Ok,
Ciao
> Bay area but the guess "small negative experience" - the idea of we are going around experiencing things and our life is a product of these experiences we consume and interpersonal politics - that's very california "the personal is the political" or that it's some how a consumption experience we "have" and who we "are" is coloured by these "experiences" etc (a fish in the water "what is water?")
you might be giving them another small negative experience. you've certainly given me one.
Not sure anyone responsible for how you feel, but I accept you feel that way, and that is regretable! Please forgive (if something I said affected negatively), and perhaps (well ... certainly) I could be better expressing. I just typed it out in haste
> taboo on taking photo
Do Germans complain/rage every time they see a security camera?
They don't see security cameras because there are very, very few in Germany and the few that exist are in train stations, or private areas like INSIDE a business, or INSIDE a private estate, pointing inwards since they're seldom allowed to film outwards
And there is a big warning if there is a security camera around. And they get destroyed pretty often.
Source: living in Berlin.
Wasn't Germany the original country that forced google maps to censor all houses unless they opt-IN? And faces, and driving plates.
I think they are quite privacy conscious, as a country.
Google Streetview isn't opt-in, it's opt-out. But it was used so much that Google simply gave up for a while.
Blurring faces (and I assume license plates) was a thing before they started serving imagery for Germany
And quite averse/backwater (choose your version) on using debit/credit cards. Which is mindblowing from my Easter European perspective. I didn't use cash in a decade.
That has pretty much changed now. I rarely use cash in Berlin. About 2-3 years already...
Berlin is very different from the rest of Germany.
Unfortunately that's much less the case since COVID. Not looking forward to have more and more placed that only take panopticon-payments.
See how StreetView looks like there (or looked), they have trouble being photographed.
> the idea of we are going around experiencing things and our life is a product of these experiences we consume and interpersonal politics - that's very california "the personal is the political"
That's a very superficial reduction of the meaning of that phrase. It's worth reading the original 1969 essay with that title:
https://www.carolhanisch.org/CHwritings/PIP.html
This quote might help understand the context:
> The bad things that are said about us as women are either myths (women are stupid), tactics women use to struggle individually (women are bitches), or are actually things that we want to carry into the new society and want men to share too (women are sensitive, emotional). Women as oppressed people act out of necessity (act dumb in the presence of men), not out of choice. Women have developed great shuffling techniques for their own survival (look pretty and giggle to get or keep a job or man) which should be used when necessary until such time as the power of unity can take its place. Women are smart not to struggle alone (as are blacks and workers). It is no worse to be in the home than in the rat race of the job world. They are both bad. Women, like blacks, workers, must stop blaming ourselves for our “failures.”
The author was dealing with and responding to very real oppression, and pointing out in part that day-to-day interactions were consequences of, and contributors to, that oppression. That's one sense in which "the personal is political."
The introduction also points out where the overall insight came from:
> However, many on the SCEF [Southern Conference Educational Fund] staff, both men and women, ended up joining the criticism of women getting together in consciousness-raising groups to discuss their own oppression as “[navel]-gazing” and “personal therapy”—and certainly “not political.”
> They could sometimes admit that women were oppressed (but only by “the system”) and said that we should have equal pay for equal work, and some other “rights.” But they belittled us no end for trying to bring our so-called “personal problems” into the public arena—especially “all those body issues” like sex, appearance, and abortion. Our demands that men share the housework and childcare were likewise deemed a personal problem between a woman and her individual man.
In that context, the personal was political in a very concrete, direct sense.
> They could sometimes admit that women were oppressed (but only by “the system”)
As the saying goes, when you're privileged equality feels like oppression.
Another Australian checking in, living in a DACH country with life experience in most of them .. Germans are averse to social culpability in ways that Australians (and Americans) are not .. whereas in the US you’ll get a neighborhood watch person on your case for not cutting the grass in the right direction, in Germany you’ll get a grumpy unwashed totalitarian who literally thinks you’re gestapo because you took photos in the public park. Actually, come to think of it, you’ll get a grumpy German complaining about the grass cutting too, never mind that analogy.
Basically, westerners need to realize that the war shock is still reverberating through DACH cultures - remember, German’s were perfectly okay with having their neighborhoods ‘cleansed’ of those their state considered inferior - and then had to suffer decades of persecution for it - whereas Americans see themselves as victors in the freedom game, which is quite pathetic because the freedoms enjoyed in German streets on the regular would have half the American nation birth kittens in conniptions.
I’ll never forget how relieved I felt when I first cracked open a beer on the street in Germany. I don’t do it often, it’s not a thing I really see myself doing a lot. But just the idea of being able to take a couple beers to the park on a picnic with my new German girlfriend, and take a few naughty pictures of her (at her request and with full consent), washed away all the pretense I had, having (at the time) recently relocated from California, where I literally witnessed kids getting their heads bashed in by police for complaining about getting a ticket for having an unopened six pack in the back seat…. I don’t fear German cops, I find them completely amusing. I do everything I can to avoid American cops.
But you know .. Australians too, have their quirks in this regards. I’ve never met a more uncouth nation, frankly. The vitriol and invective I encountered, visiting my homeland again, just for speaking a bit of German on the train with my kids, was overwhelming… from little old ladies who should know better than to challenge a well-traveled cosmopolitan sandgroper on the subject of language. Oh, how their faces vacuumed into themselves once I explained that I was, in fact, Australian, and that I consider anyone who only speaks a single language vastly inferior to those who speak many - just as the original caretakers of the stolen land did!
All in, I prefer living in a DACH nation than either Australia or USA, unwashed totalitarian personalities notwithstanding. It’s just a more relaxed culture, all things considered. The war shock reverberates, but in the corners of it all you will find a lot more free thought than most of the western world.
And that’s another great reason to go to CCC and see for yourself: the freedoms of thought on display.
If people feel obligated to be spazzy around cameras why would they go near an event on photography...
the ccc isn't about photography?
I was walking about 34c3 with an old medium format folding camera and mainly got nice comments. I did try to avoid getting people in shots though.
If you live in Germany and would like to experience this on a smaller scale THIS WEEKEND, come to the CCC conference in Dresden, called Datenspuren, run by our local CCC Erfa-Kreis C3D2. It takes place from 18.09 - 20.09 in Zentralwerk Dresden.
It is a beautiful and inclusive environment that highlights not only a lot local hackers, but also a lot of artists.
I was there last year and it was amazing! I totally recommend it.
You can find more info about the event and the featured talks and events here:
https://talks.datenspuren.de/ds26/talk/
https://datenspuren.de/2026/#start
21th/24th -> celebrating with family the winter solstice 25th -> visiting the extended family 26th -> visiting friends
27-30th -> congress \o/
31th -> celebrating a new year either close to the congress or with family again
Works very well for very long time. Plenty of families with kids on the congress too and you always have holidays at that time.
Im not single and i'm not 20...
That's already hectic and stressfull without the congress part, especially if any of the preparatinon for those meetups falls to you.
A lot of people spend more than 1 or 2 days visiting family during Christmas time, and travel long distances to do so.
Perhaps and thats wonderful for these people but stating that only 20 and single can go to the congress is as generic as my response.
The congress was always booked out, its not that the congress has any attendance issues and its not that OP never had the chance to visit and never will have the chance to visit when his/her kids get older.
Btw. i travel too to my family
Yeah, works if you're 2h away from the venue.
Im away 6h from the venue and 3h from my family.
Come on...
I take the whole family. There is something for everyone there and Christmas in Germany is next level. Even kids. Every parent should want kids to see that kind of creative energy to model as they mature. My wife will not go to Defcon but she loves CCC.
I agree that the timing is suboptimal in a family context, or at least it was when the kids were younger. Now that they are tech-savvy teenagers, I took them with me last year, and they enjoyed exploring the congress both with me and on their own. My wife is fine with it and enjoys some me-time after Christmas.
Marry a hacker, and have hacker kids, problem solved :3
Lots of families there every year and older folks too, it’s actually a great date for a lot of IT folks as there aren’t many weeks when companies are effectively shut down, maybe even only this one week.
I actually know several people who regularly visit the 3C with their families and children. There are a lot of cool activities for kids from a certain age (10-ish). Even without all the social programm, there are plenty of talks which are interesting to non-IT people.
Go to the camp, that's in the summer time every .. 4? years.
Many people who go enjoy the opportunity to get away from family
45, married and traveling from America to go to my first CCC
...or 40 and divorced
Its the perfect date for people who see all of their "real" family once per year, at CCC. Lots of couples attending obv.
Yeah, would be feasible if tickets wouldn't be so hard to get for externals. Ain't no way my partner would hang out for a year every week with me in a hackerspace
Yeah, CCC is only accessible for people who are already part of CCC for decades.
There are some token newcomers, but overall it is a very closed community.
I have absolutely no connection to CCC whatsoever and yet whenever I wanted to go to a CCC event (3 Camps and 2 Congresses so far, the first time in 2015), I could and when I wanted to take my partner with me, I could do that too. You just have to be fast to get the tickets before they're sold out, that's pretty much all there is to it.
Depends on when it was. Congress was less popular in the past so you could get a ticket.
Nowadays, most tickets go to hackerspaces and volunteers but the open sale sells out in seconds.
Camps are much easier to get to.
I did get my tickets volunteering for like a decade but last year I gave up - volunteering the whole event so I get a chance to go to the next event ... where I would volunteer the while event. That's not a good time.
Especially when there's more and more volunteers competing for work so they get a voucher - while the oldschoolers have no need for any of that because they can always get a ticket through backchannels.
Funny how CCC managed to recreate the worst aspects of capitalism as part of their leftist conference.
In the past it was "The Usual Suspects", now it is "Model Citizens". Back then smoking indoors at conferences was a topic hackers would discuss. Now I'm sure it will be a very serious conference full of grown-ups.
Will not be able to attend this year :'-) Have to ask friends to get me a "Model Citizen" shirt!
For me the smoking hall going away was a turning point in the culture at CCC for the worse. Sitting there and smoking weed with random people are some of my favorite memories. It feels less like disneyland for hackers each year
Smoking areas are more a requirement of the location than anything else
How difficult is it to get a ticket as an outsider nowadays? I remember publicly available tickets selling out in like 3.5 seconds a few years ago.
I tried it last year at every slot and had no chance at all.
Lots of tickets could be found on "Kleinanzeigen" after that and I think the club was quick to get them deleted and try to contain Scalping as much as possible.
With the newer, bigger location, I hope chances are better for a solo person. Hackerspaces have a reserved package I think, but I'm not really affiliated with those in my area, so that's not really an option for me.
For now I got a hotel reservation, that's just as important... :-D
I don't think there is outsiders vs the rest. Either you propose content, accepted talks or workshops, and you can come or you buy a ticket. Everybody has the same "chance". If you miss the ticket but really want to come you can try your luck at the entrance, there are usually always some people who can't make it but it's of course a bet.
I remember a mechanism where you could redeem a single-use invite token, which would return another single-use token when consumed, which could then be chained idefinitely. Local CCC groups where given a few such tokens to get their members and friends in.
I moved to central Silicon Valley where it all began hoping to have an endless supply of hackers building communities to hang out in. I can count on one hand the people that meet my definition of a hacker that do things for public good or personal curiosity rather than profit... in 10 years. It is a buy culture, not a build culture. "Engineers" who cannot install operating systems for themselves anymore and rely on a Genius Bar when they have a computer oopsie.
And Defcon... the average attendee is a corporate ghoul who only got into this for money, and has no care for anything they cannot readily leverage to further their careers. Even the privacy village has no idea how to use open source software let alone self host anything and just asks people to sign up to their slack, discord, and google groups. It is a disgrace.
But CCC really is the closest place I can go on the planet to hang out with tens of thousands of real hackers, most of which are not even employed in the industry, who just build incredible things with open source as a community because they can. Art everywhere, punk concerts in the bathrooms, their own phone networks built from scratch, underground bars built from scrap wood, no questions asked bring-your-own-server farms, and volunteer culture at its best.
Truly, going to CCC every year I can is how I get hope for the culture that might be possible in the valley again some day. I am going to do whatever it takes to bring that energy back to the valley to motivate all the smart minds here that their skills exist for more than creating shareholder value.
I’ll be there and bring my average model citizen CYBER collection in display cases.
I’ve ordered hundreds of thousands of stickers with this meme already. [1]
Really looking forward to the event again.
1: https://hack42.nl/wiki/Groupbuy_cyberstickers_2024
CYBER CYBER! <3
Cliff Stoll was at DEFCON this year, would be great for Markus Hess to be at CCC to tell his side of the story.
Link to Cliff's talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=656058JxTM0
Actually, Markus Hess already gave such a talk this year (in German, no closed captions but lots of AI-generated illustrations):
https://media.ccc.de/v/ho26-124-vom-hacker-zum-spion-die-ges...
Holy moly people feel entitled about joining a volunteer run (even things like health and security) organization.
I heard security failed to treat someone correctly after an attempted robbery, tbh put me off CCC. Not trying to be negative just hope they address this I was kinda taken aback.
EDIT > Instead of downvoting me you could defend yourself, say something chill like "security is better this year" or ask for clarification I have no agenda
Hacker conference: against authoritarian government, with talk about security, privacy, opsec etc.
Also: can only buy ticket online with credit card and real name, no onsite sell available, your name is probably give to conference administrator for checking ticket, he will probably give it to third parties or keep it for "good reasons", etc.
Don't get me wrong, I like the talks, they are very good. It is just a bit funny for me. They can't try harder to be hackers? Or is it like this in germany always?
> Hacker conference: against authoritarian government, with talk about security, privacy, opsec etc.
> Also: can only buy ticket online with credit card and real name, no onsite sell available, your name is probably give to conference administrator for checking ticket, he will probably give it to third parties or keep it for "good reasons", etc.
I am indeed quite certain that many hackers in Germany independently already devised the same thoughts ...
Go to the local smaller CCC conferences, where you can pay with things like GNU Taler or cryptocurrency, and the entry is often free anyway, with a donation being appreciated or buying event merch being a nice alternative to simply donating.
I think the hacker spirit is definitely alive & kicking in those smaller CCC events.
I'd never heard of GNU Taler but the FAQ left me even more confused.
> Can I send money to my friends with Taler? Taler supports push and pull payments between wallets (also known as peer-to-peer payments). While the payment appears to be directly between wallets, technically the operation is intermediated by the payment service provider which will typically be legally required to identify the recipient of the funds before allowing the transaction to complete.
Also the funds have an expiration date (forced spending). Who is this for? My naive read seems like it has all the downsides of bitcoin and more with none of its upsides
The doc won't point it out explicitly and I apologize if my explanation offends anybody, but the intention is basically leftist, state-friendly bitcoin. The authors took a look at the anarchy of real cryptocurrencies and realized they don't actually like anarchy, so instead they want to make something "wholesome" that governments would be willing to go along with (since they can tax it).
They are funded by EU and banks in an attempt to claw back some market share from cryptocurrencies which are slowly getting banned.
That's the official position. I'm pretty sure, but of course I'm not suggesting you do so, that if you pay with a prepaid credit card and call yourself Random Person you will have no problem. As I said in another thread you can also just show up and buy ticket cash at the entrance from whomever sells them, but of course you risk not getting a ticket. Depends on your concerns. I'm pretty sure if you have a better solution but such large scale event you can contribute directly.
I'm also pretty sure if you have something genuinely uniquely valuable to contribute but can only participate anonymously you can contact organizers and they'll find a way, regardless of ticket availability.
The organisation has to still pay their suppliers, and have to comply with anti money laundering laws
The politics of C3 is mixture of older anarcho communist hackers and contemporary progressive statists. So against authoritarian government, if it's right-wing, and privacy to protect against surveillance capitalism (rather than from the state).
So things like bitcoin are not liked as they're outside of the state and money should be a function of a benevolent left-wing state.