I think a lot about how Terrence Tao and the usual 30 (already well-funded) math guys will receive this cash while us early-career math students are left holding the bag.
It's akin somewhat to "donating 100 dollars to the node JS foundation, not the packages that appear when you run npm fund".
I'm curious what you as an early-career math student would want the Simon Foundation to do differently from what it says it will do. I hope there is a way for students like to you to get a slice of the pie.
Isn't that basically all of AI for white collar workers?
I haven't escape note that I can do tons of things with AI because I spent the last 10 years building a bunch of side projects and now I can complete those side projects because I know all the magic words.
Gonna need to unionize because the gerontology is just getting stronger.
As much as this looks like a math problem, it's actually an everyone problem. Some hands-on (literally) have more way to go, but otherwise this is a "hop" that the entire society needs to cross. Honestly, I don't think there's going to be be any Math 2.0 as there won't be any other 2.0, at least not in any utilitarian way and the effort to find utility where there's none is misguided at best. The analogy I like to make is that with horses trying to find utility y in the Ford era.
It's also not an OpenAI, Anthropic or any specific name caused problem. This type of progress has always been happening, it's more or less coincidental (like Stigler's law). The problem though is we need to rethink how we operate as a society and too few (IMO) are trying to make this conversation happen.
>I think a lot about how Terrence Tao and the usual 30 (already well-funded) math guys will receive this cash while us early-career math students are left holding the bag.
Never understood this sentiment. Theses top researchers could do almost anything else with their skills outside Academia and make far far more money. You don't get rich off grants... They could all presumably walk into Anthropic or OpenAI for near $1M a year in TC.
If you yourself are as cracked as you think you could also do the same...
Maybe you get conditioned on how the rich usually treats other people, but this view isn't well supported by healthy discussions among the math community wrt recent AI 'disruption'
> Under a partnership, the Simons Foundation, Anthropic and OpenAI will commit $15 million in combined funding and resources. The foundation will manage and award the funding, including through an open call for proposals, to support workshops and initiatives that help researchers evaluate recent AI-assisted results, learn and use new tools, share perspectives and shape collective standards for AI use.
The foundation was started in 1994, Wikipedia says "one of the largest charitable organizations in the United States with assets of over $5 billion in 2022" - Jim Simons founded the Renaissance Technologies hedge fund.
Simons Foundation also significantly funds arXiv, and also a large number of specific grants across maths and sciences. I don't think there's much agenda here.
So, basically they created the recent situation in math where a great deals of top mathematicians criticized their methods, even called to boycott their dumped results. And the answer of the AI labs is buying these poor academic souls with 15$ millions? Most of them even as AI tokens? Why do I see a macabre irony here?!
So charitable that it launches this initiative with ClosedAI and Misanthropic. There are probably accelerationist and transhumanist nutcases at this foundation.
Can you ever look behind the surface of ... anything at all? Only naive and childlike statements in favor of AI proponents. It is literally like saying: "Prince Andrew and Sarah Ferguson are esteemed members of the magnanimous and generous Royal Family."
> > Under a partnership, the Simons Foundation, Anthropic and OpenAI will commit $15 million in combined funding and resources.
OAI and Ant got blowback for essentially strip mining mathematical discoveries into PR wins for their models, accidentally laying waste to the research field in process. Throwing ~$5M each into PR whitewashing (partially in token credits), seems self-serving.
Kudos to the Simons Foundation for seizing the moment to offer the labs a fig leaf of respectability. Might have been the fastest "Yes" on a grant proposal ever.
OpenAI's market cap or valuation estimate went up by about 230 billion dollars within a few weeks after announcing that they solved NS. It can't be known how much of that value change was because of that announcement, but must be at least a good chunk of it.
>... essentially strip mining mathematical discoveries into PR wins for their models, accidentally laying waste to the research field in process.
Jeeze, that's an almost impressively charged way of saying "private company performing SOTA research on open problems that anyone has been welcomed to approach for over a century" lol
I think it does a disservice to the dialogue to strip away any nuance here and just paint these companies as evil for doing what everyone has been anticipating companies like them doing well before LLMs even existed. It's clearly just trying to fit these events into a specific narrative which does nothing to actually address the inevitability of everything that comes next. Feel free to pressure OpenAI and Anthropic to stop performing math research so that it can just be picked up by whoever catches up and doesn't care about bad PR. I'm sure Musk with Grok will be extra considerate of pure math researchers when he sees an opening to pick up those scraps lol
In chats with models like deepseek the LLM makes many basic math wrong claims. Maybe more advanced models can in special circumstances, guided by the work of humans and Lean, prove theorems. But just like in RL, the brute force approach of failing a million times may not be enough when the reward is far.
In math the reward is finding the decomposition that reduces the problem to simpler cases, and in many cases that reward is very far. Furthermore, the LLM may process the many cases fast, but the decomposition often comes from a human, and the model takes the credit for the proof.
This foundation could provide the LLMs with the decompositions, generated by human ingenuity, that they need. But once supplied, the model can run the cases and get the credit. Hence more credits for LLMs and fewer jobs and worse prospects for humans, even if it isn't an intended consequence.
Nearly everyone rejected the idea of a CERN-like project for mathematics when it was recently proposed. It should have been more seriously considered.
Now that things are settling a bit after the Navier-Stokes and theorem-dump shocks, something like what mathematics will look like post-AI is starting to emerge. Of course, things should be conditioned on the assumption that capabilities will continue to improve, but imagine something like this--
An institute with a tremendous amount of compute, either rented or owned, built on the Humboldtian model of the unity of teaching and research. The main draw for big names would be the access to compute, free of the fear of being scooped. New forms of attribution and collaboration would develop, and we'd gain some clarity for students and PhDs on what a future career looks like.
The current melange of math university departments all following their own paths through the crisis without consolidating resources makes the transition more difficult. Think of the path physics took beginning with scattered cyclotrons (the basement of the Niels Bohr institute was even dug out to put one in), then the larger labs that followed. That transition was gradual because physics led it from within, whereas with mathematics every university department is suddenly at a massive compute disadvantage with respect to labs that aren't following the same model, and are driven by different incentives.
It could be this simple--maybe we don't need to completely throw away the old model, attribution practices, and so on, and maybe we can preserve the transfer of knowledge to the next generation of mathematicians, if we simply give them lots of compute.
An analogy to physics to highlight how the divergent interests of the labs could be managed in a state of "peaceful coexistence" might be: physicists got well-funded accelerators and labs that followed standard academic practices. These were separate from "war work" (Los Alamos) that followed government priorities, even with the crossover of personnel. You could have the same thing with a "math accelerator" working on the academic model, while the AI labs follow their own priorities, and some subset of people cross between.
It might be objected that this is merely a conservative attempt to preserve the existing academic conventions and practices currently under threat, but tenure itself already does that, and is arguably the very thing that exacerbates the problem for young mathematicians.
So they want mathematicians to keep prompting and giving feedback to the models for clarifications on their proofs. Then write it all up and publish it in a journal and mention their AI usage. Then suddenly the models end up producing readable and understandable proofs through the "emergence" of the skills because of the scaling laws.
I really can't empathize with treating mathematicians as some sort of AI refugees who need coddling and support. AI is a tool, and competent mathematicians should learn to use it like everyone else. I find it hard to believe that AI doesn't represent a net potential benefit to human understanding of mathematics. Yes it can be misused, but any tool can be misused. Just don't misuse it...
> can't empathize with treating mathematicians as some sort of AI refugees
They may be a vanguard.
> find it hard to believe that AI doesn't represent a net potential benefit to human understanding of mathematics. Yes it can be misused
Have you read Tao’s criticism of AI in mathematics? The concern isn’t mis-use, it’s ecosystem collapse.
A good analogy would be offshoring. If AI causes higher mathematical thought among humans to stop happening for a generation, we could wind up in a state where the field stops progressing because AI is unable to generate new interesting questions or cross-link findings into practical applications.
More directly, the risk is that happens in America but not in a more-thoughtful country.
To merely wish for others not to misuse a powerful tool is a bit naive?
You have to actively design society to accommodate for the dangers it poses.
Of course everybody should "learn to use AI", but the real questions here are wildly different: can everybody use AI? Do the big US companies succeed in capturing the system, effectively shutting out every competitor and how do you imagine to benefit from that? Etc.
one issue is that the tool is wielded both by the user and the provider - each time we augment our skill with its capability, we are improving its capability with our skills.
knowledge workers are building their own gallows and it probably can't be stopped.
yeah its egotistic bs because they built an identity about being attributed in a journal instead of just focusing on the advancement. they collectively rationalize it by saying that the answers aren’t as important, the path to the answers are, despite the answers being what everyone considered them to be using taxpayer and other funding for, and the distributed time used.
they’ve only had a few weeks to deprogram so I’ll let it shake out just a little longer
Is mathematics deprived of the associated knowledge that comes from a human first deriving a proof, how exploring the problem domain including the dead-ends has changed the mathematician's thinking, when a proof is given by AI? It seems that the solving rather than just the solution gave much to mathematics.
Can you explain to me what "navigation" means if AI actually succeeds at automating mathematics? Or is the bet here that the AI companies will fail to deliver?
Aside from the fact that $15M is couch change for these companies, and aside from the fact that this project is hypocritical and self-serving (as explained by many other posts), the whole idea of naming a supposedly large sum of money in a headline in order to impress is just silly. Whether a project is successful or worthwhile has little to do with how much funding may be lined up, and throwing numbers around is often just a smokescreen for poor planning and execution.
Wonder if they realize these types of things help grow massive resentment against such companies? I'm astounded by how terrible the politics of SV actually is.
how is that different than what's been happening forever? Mathematics has ALWAYS been a "charity". The only thing that changes over time is who gives the money, first it's the church, then it's princes, then government, it's been corporations for a while, this is nothing new.
I think a lot about how Terrence Tao and the usual 30 (already well-funded) math guys will receive this cash while us early-career math students are left holding the bag.
It's akin somewhat to "donating 100 dollars to the node JS foundation, not the packages that appear when you run npm fund".
Higher ed as we know it started out as rich families paying churches to let their kids study theology to avoid manual labor.
Various historians agree with the idea credentialism is largely just a tool of aristocracy to manipulate the public.
But it's not like those guys will just pocket that money. They will use it like all academic grant money is used: to hire PhD students and postdocs.
I'm curious what you as an early-career math student would want the Simon Foundation to do differently from what it says it will do. I hope there is a way for students like to you to get a slice of the pie.
Why are you "holding the bag" You're early career math students. I know a lot of industries that would love to hire you.
Even if you want to work in research, AI offers a lot of opportunities to do even more research, and less grunt work
Isn't that basically all of AI for white collar workers?
I haven't escape note that I can do tons of things with AI because I spent the last 10 years building a bunch of side projects and now I can complete those side projects because I know all the magic words.
Gonna need to unionize because the gerontology is just getting stronger.
As much as this looks like a math problem, it's actually an everyone problem. Some hands-on (literally) have more way to go, but otherwise this is a "hop" that the entire society needs to cross. Honestly, I don't think there's going to be be any Math 2.0 as there won't be any other 2.0, at least not in any utilitarian way and the effort to find utility where there's none is misguided at best. The analogy I like to make is that with horses trying to find utility y in the Ford era.
It's also not an OpenAI, Anthropic or any specific name caused problem. This type of progress has always been happening, it's more or less coincidental (like Stigler's law). The problem though is we need to rethink how we operate as a society and too few (IMO) are trying to make this conversation happen.
>I think a lot about how Terrence Tao and the usual 30 (already well-funded) math guys will receive this cash while us early-career math students are left holding the bag.
Never understood this sentiment. Theses top researchers could do almost anything else with their skills outside Academia and make far far more money. You don't get rich off grants... They could all presumably walk into Anthropic or OpenAI for near $1M a year in TC.
If you yourself are as cracked as you think you could also do the same...
Maybe you get conditioned on how the rich usually treats other people, but this view isn't well supported by healthy discussions among the math community wrt recent AI 'disruption'
Ha, reminds me of how anthropic publishes their math papers with meat proxy math professors who were compensated for their "authorship" of the paper.
Essentially gifts for the annointed.
You never had some god given right to be a math researcher. You have a big brain and training in a field that is very useful in various industries.
> Under a partnership, the Simons Foundation, Anthropic and OpenAI will commit $15 million in combined funding and resources. The foundation will manage and award the funding, including through an open call for proposals, to support workshops and initiatives that help researchers evaluate recent AI-assisted results, learn and use new tools, share perspectives and shape collective standards for AI use.
The foundation was started in 1994, Wikipedia says "one of the largest charitable organizations in the United States with assets of over $5 billion in 2022" - Jim Simons founded the Renaissance Technologies hedge fund.
Simons Foundation also significantly funds arXiv, and also a large number of specific grants across maths and sciences. I don't think there's much agenda here.
So, basically they created the recent situation in math where a great deals of top mathematicians criticized their methods, even called to boycott their dumped results. And the answer of the AI labs is buying these poor academic souls with 15$ millions? Most of them even as AI tokens? Why do I see a macabre irony here?!
I see you saying a lot of intelligent things - do you really not know much about the Simons Foundation?
They also gifted $ 5m [1] to the FRO (Lean Focused Research Organization) [2].
[1] https://www.simonsfoundation.org/news/from-trust-to-verifica...
[2] https://lean-lang.org/fro/
So charitable that it launches this initiative with ClosedAI and Misanthropic. There are probably accelerationist and transhumanist nutcases at this foundation.
Quanta magazine is the propaganda arm.
Can you ever look behind the surface of ... anything at all? Only naive and childlike statements in favor of AI proponents. It is literally like saying: "Prince Andrew and Sarah Ferguson are esteemed members of the magnanimous and generous Royal Family."
> > Under a partnership, the Simons Foundation, Anthropic and OpenAI will commit $15 million in combined funding and resources.
OAI and Ant got blowback for essentially strip mining mathematical discoveries into PR wins for their models, accidentally laying waste to the research field in process. Throwing ~$5M each into PR whitewashing (partially in token credits), seems self-serving.
Kudos to the Simons Foundation for seizing the moment to offer the labs a fig leaf of respectability. Might have been the fastest "Yes" on a grant proposal ever.
The research field of mathematics is obviously so different with these frontier models that to describe it has being laid waste is nonsensical.
It’s like saying the power loom laid waste to the field of textiles.
OpenAI's market cap or valuation estimate went up by about 230 billion dollars within a few weeks after announcing that they solved NS. It can't be known how much of that value change was because of that announcement, but must be at least a good chunk of it.
>... essentially strip mining mathematical discoveries into PR wins for their models, accidentally laying waste to the research field in process.
Jeeze, that's an almost impressively charged way of saying "private company performing SOTA research on open problems that anyone has been welcomed to approach for over a century" lol
I think it does a disservice to the dialogue to strip away any nuance here and just paint these companies as evil for doing what everyone has been anticipating companies like them doing well before LLMs even existed. It's clearly just trying to fit these events into a specific narrative which does nothing to actually address the inevitability of everything that comes next. Feel free to pressure OpenAI and Anthropic to stop performing math research so that it can just be picked up by whoever catches up and doesn't care about bad PR. I'm sure Musk with Grok will be extra considerate of pure math researchers when he sees an opening to pick up those scraps lol
My effort to help scientists navigate the AI era:
On ChatGPT: Settings -> Data controls -> Turn off “Improve model for everyone”
On Claude: Settings -> Privacy -> Turn off “Help improve our AI models”
They can scrape your work after you publish it.
Will they even abide by these settings? They did not respect IP...
In chats with models like deepseek the LLM makes many basic math wrong claims. Maybe more advanced models can in special circumstances, guided by the work of humans and Lean, prove theorems. But just like in RL, the brute force approach of failing a million times may not be enough when the reward is far.
In math the reward is finding the decomposition that reduces the problem to simpler cases, and in many cases that reward is very far. Furthermore, the LLM may process the many cases fast, but the decomposition often comes from a human, and the model takes the credit for the proof.
This foundation could provide the LLMs with the decompositions, generated by human ingenuity, that they need. But once supplied, the model can run the cases and get the credit. Hence more credits for LLMs and fewer jobs and worse prospects for humans, even if it isn't an intended consequence.
Nearly everyone rejected the idea of a CERN-like project for mathematics when it was recently proposed. It should have been more seriously considered.
Now that things are settling a bit after the Navier-Stokes and theorem-dump shocks, something like what mathematics will look like post-AI is starting to emerge. Of course, things should be conditioned on the assumption that capabilities will continue to improve, but imagine something like this--
An institute with a tremendous amount of compute, either rented or owned, built on the Humboldtian model of the unity of teaching and research. The main draw for big names would be the access to compute, free of the fear of being scooped. New forms of attribution and collaboration would develop, and we'd gain some clarity for students and PhDs on what a future career looks like.
The current melange of math university departments all following their own paths through the crisis without consolidating resources makes the transition more difficult. Think of the path physics took beginning with scattered cyclotrons (the basement of the Niels Bohr institute was even dug out to put one in), then the larger labs that followed. That transition was gradual because physics led it from within, whereas with mathematics every university department is suddenly at a massive compute disadvantage with respect to labs that aren't following the same model, and are driven by different incentives.
It could be this simple--maybe we don't need to completely throw away the old model, attribution practices, and so on, and maybe we can preserve the transfer of knowledge to the next generation of mathematicians, if we simply give them lots of compute.
An analogy to physics to highlight how the divergent interests of the labs could be managed in a state of "peaceful coexistence" might be: physicists got well-funded accelerators and labs that followed standard academic practices. These were separate from "war work" (Los Alamos) that followed government priorities, even with the crossover of personnel. You could have the same thing with a "math accelerator" working on the academic model, while the AI labs follow their own priorities, and some subset of people cross between.
It might be objected that this is merely a conservative attempt to preserve the existing academic conventions and practices currently under threat, but tenure itself already does that, and is arguably the very thing that exacerbates the problem for young mathematicians.
So they want mathematicians to keep prompting and giving feedback to the models for clarifications on their proofs. Then write it all up and publish it in a journal and mention their AI usage. Then suddenly the models end up producing readable and understandable proofs through the "emergence" of the skills because of the scaling laws.
That's exactly why they want you to use AI as well.
This is the first time I hear of a group receiving founding to navigate AI era. Why this one and not all the others that have to adapt to the AI era?
(Yes I know it's not the group directly receiving the founding)
It’s simple: Because Jim Simons (who founded RenTech and Simons Foundation) was a prominent mathematician himself.
He was also a major backer of autism research, because his family member had it. People spend money to where their passion is.
> Why this one and not all the others that have to adapt to the AI era?
Mathematicians are not dummies?
I really can't empathize with treating mathematicians as some sort of AI refugees who need coddling and support. AI is a tool, and competent mathematicians should learn to use it like everyone else. I find it hard to believe that AI doesn't represent a net potential benefit to human understanding of mathematics. Yes it can be misused, but any tool can be misused. Just don't misuse it...
> can't empathize with treating mathematicians as some sort of AI refugees
They may be a vanguard.
> find it hard to believe that AI doesn't represent a net potential benefit to human understanding of mathematics. Yes it can be misused
Have you read Tao’s criticism of AI in mathematics? The concern isn’t mis-use, it’s ecosystem collapse.
A good analogy would be offshoring. If AI causes higher mathematical thought among humans to stop happening for a generation, we could wind up in a state where the field stops progressing because AI is unable to generate new interesting questions or cross-link findings into practical applications.
More directly, the risk is that happens in America but not in a more-thoughtful country.
To merely wish for others not to misuse a powerful tool is a bit naive?
You have to actively design society to accommodate for the dangers it poses.
Of course everybody should "learn to use AI", but the real questions here are wildly different: can everybody use AI? Do the big US companies succeed in capturing the system, effectively shutting out every competitor and how do you imagine to benefit from that? Etc.
one issue is that the tool is wielded both by the user and the provider - each time we augment our skill with its capability, we are improving its capability with our skills.
knowledge workers are building their own gallows and it probably can't be stopped.
This isn't coddling — it's bribing key people to use AI and blog about it.
yeah its egotistic bs because they built an identity about being attributed in a journal instead of just focusing on the advancement. they collectively rationalize it by saying that the answers aren’t as important, the path to the answers are, despite the answers being what everyone considered them to be using taxpayer and other funding for, and the distributed time used.
they’ve only had a few weeks to deprogram so I’ll let it shake out just a little longer
Is mathematics deprived of the associated knowledge that comes from a human first deriving a proof, how exploring the problem domain including the dead-ends has changed the mathematician's thinking, when a proof is given by AI? It seems that the solving rather than just the solution gave much to mathematics.
> It seems that the solving rather than just the solution gave much to mathematics
The whole discourse of past few weeks has been mathematicians claiming the opposite.
15M really is not a big commitment tbh... university take half, then there is not much left; it can maybe fund <10 groups.
Can you explain to me what "navigation" means if AI actually succeeds at automating mathematics? Or is the bet here that the AI companies will fail to deliver?
15M is the average cost of 5 bay area houses! Not sure what they are even attempting to do with this effort rather than to get some free marketing!
So $15M of OpenAI/Anthropic tokens, won't this just encourage more model use that started the "issue" in the first place?
What’s the solution? Not use OpenAI and Anthropic and watch less idealistic peers post breakthroughs?
OpenAI's contribution is funding, separate from compute (not tokens).
This is the "democratization" in practice. Top pro-AI mathematicians will get the spoils.
Lol. I would say these guys made bad life/career choices. They can take care of themselves.
Aside from the fact that $15M is couch change for these companies, and aside from the fact that this project is hypocritical and self-serving (as explained by many other posts), the whole idea of naming a supposedly large sum of money in a headline in order to impress is just silly. Whether a project is successful or worthwhile has little to do with how much funding may be lined up, and throwing numbers around is often just a smokescreen for poor planning and execution.
Wonder if they realize these types of things help grow massive resentment against such companies? I'm astounded by how terrible the politics of SV actually is.
They try to transform mathematics to a charity. How generous!!!
Richard Simmons, what a guy
how is that different than what's been happening forever? Mathematics has ALWAYS been a "charity". The only thing that changes over time is who gives the money, first it's the church, then it's princes, then government, it's been corporations for a while, this is nothing new.
i think tokens for any scientists should be free.
Tokens aren't free, so I guess you mean we should force AI companies to subsidize scientists.
ok hello I'm a scientist can I have my tokens now
I for one support using our tax money to fund scientists
"One of the foundations responsible for the AI mess bribes mathematicians to accelerate AI."
How shameless can you be?
What mess?